DHH 谈 AI、智能体工程与编程的未来｜Lex Fridman Podcast #501

简要描述Brief Description

这段与 David Heinemeier Hansson（DHH）的对话探讨了从 AI 辅助编程到智能体编程的快速转变，并以他在 Omarchy、Linux、Ruby on Rails 和开源软件方面的工作为切入点，探讨当人们能够指挥能力日益强大的软件智能体时，会发生哪些变化。对话还探讨了在技术以前所未有的速度发展的时期，技艺、品味、工作、风险、社群以及编程对人的意义。This conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH) examines the rapid shift from AI-assisted coding to agentic programming, using his work on Omarchy, Linux, Ruby on Rails, and open-source software to explore what changes when people can direct increasingly capable software agents. It also considers craft, taste, work, risk, community, and the human meaning of programming during a period of unusually fast technological change.

目录Table of Contents

• 智能体拐点
  The Agentic Inflection Point
• 从自动补全到自主工作
  From Autocomplete to Autonomous Work
• Omarchy 与 Linux 桌面
  Omarchy and the Linux Desktop
• 开源、维护者与贡献
  Open Source, Maintainers, and Contribution
• AI精神病、风险与怀疑主义
  AI Psychosis, Risk, and Skepticism
• 氛围编程、智能体工程与命名
  Vibe Coding, Agentic Engineering, and Names
• 工艺、品味与编程的意义
  Craft, Taste, and the Meaning of Programming
• 工作、就业与自动化
  Work, Jobs, and Automation
• 历史、文化与通往人工智能之路
  History, Culture, and the Road to AI
• 工具、工作流程与未来
  Tools, Workflows, and the Future
• 抱负、社区与 Omarchy
  Ambition, Community, and Omarchy
• 约束、喜悦与创造
  Constraints, Joy, and Building
• 作为一种人类实践的编程
  Programming as a Human Practice
• 代码之外的生活
  Life Beyond Code
• 结束语
  Closing Reflections

智能体化拐点The Agentic Inflection Point

有些十年无事发生，有些几周却抵得上几十年。而过去九个月里，我们见证了几十年的进步。如果你没有意识到这一刻有多么重大，那才是妄想，是精神错乱。要是突然有个精灵从瓶子里冒出来，对你说：“你想要什么都可以。”谁不会欣喜若狂呢？There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. If you're not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that's the delusion. That's the psychosis. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, "You can have whatever you want.

“你曾梦想过的操作系统中的所有功能，我都能给你做出来，大多数五分钟就行，少数要二十分钟；要是我们真放开手脚，最多也就花我两个小时。”我想要最快的车，能突破限速的那种。我想要能潜到马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。我想要能在不到六十秒内安装完成的操作系统。我一直很喜欢赛车的一点是：每次我摇摇晃晃地从车里出来，浑身精疲力竭，连头都快抬不起来，然后躺在车库地板上，只会想：“我操，我还活着。”奥弗顿窗口不会自己打开。它是一点一点被推开的，靠的是那些愿意冒一点风险的人。Every feature you've ever dreamed of in an operating system, I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it's gonna take me two hours." I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds. One of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I'd lay down on the garage floor and just think, "Holy fuck, I'm alive." The Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little.

一点名声，一点反对声，一点批评，或者有时也许是很多名声、很多批评，或很多反对声。和你所爱的人一起创造生命，简直就是身为地球上生命的巅峰体验。接下来是与 David Heinemeier Hansson 的对话，他也被称为 DHH，是 Ruby on Rails 的创造者、37signals 的首席技术官、新款 Omarchy Linux 操作系统的创造者、畅销书作家、赛车手，也是世界上最直言不讳、产量最高的程序员之一。在过去二十多年里，对他而言，编程意味着精心手工打造优美的 Ruby 代码。但最近，自 2025 年末以来，DHH 拥抱了 AI 革命，并公开地再次将自己转变为……之一，成为世界上最……的程序员之一。A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. Creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet. The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH, creator of Ruby on Rails, CTO of 37signals, creator of the new Omarchy Linux operating system, best-selling author, race car driver, and one of the most outspoken and prolific programmers in the world. For the past 20-plus years, for him, programming meant meticulously handcrafting beautiful Ruby code. But recently, since late 2025, DHH has embraced the AI revolution and has openly transformed himself into, once again, one of the

他是最直言不讳、产出最丰的智能体工程师之一，尽管他讨厌这个称呼。那我们就称他们为从业者吧——无论编程正在演变成什么样：AI 负责大部分实际编程工作，而人类则通过高层次的设计、愿景和品味来掌舵。没错，确实如此。DHH 有时颇具争议，但他始终无所畏惧、才华横溢，而且很健谈。这又一次是一场激烈、令人豁然开朗、如同疯狂过山车般的对话。这是 Lex Fridman 播客。想支持这个节目，请查看简介中的赞助商；你也可以在那里找到联系我、提问、反馈等相关链接。现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请 DHH。most outspoken and prolific agentic engineers, even though he hates that term. So let's say practitioners of whatever programming is becoming where AI is doing most of the actual programming and the human steers the ship with high-level design, vision, and taste. Yes, it's true. DHH is at times controversial, but he's always fearless, brilliant, and fun to talk to. This was, once again, an intense, eye-opening, and wild rollercoaster ride of a conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's DHH.

13个月前，我们就坐在这里聊编程，之后一切都变了。当时，你对 AI 在编程过程中的作用还有些怀疑，随后我们经历了智能体工程的飞速演进。先从一个简单的问题开始：你对 AI 在编程中的作用的看法发生了怎样的变化？你感到兴奋吗？害怕吗？还是一直处于情绪过山车中？13 months ago, we sat down right here to talk about programming, and then everything changed. At that time, you were a bit skeptical about the role of AI in the process of programming, and then we went through this rapid evolution of agentic engineering. So, simple question to start: How has your view on AI's role in programming changed? Are you excited? Are you terrified? Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride?

我无比兴奋。你一直在谈论乐趣，而丝毫没有提到存在性威胁。对我来说，那并不是一种情感体验，只是理智层面的认知；在情感上，我感受到的则是百分之百纯粹、毫无掺杂的喜悦、乐观，以及对我们竟然让计算机做到这一点的惊叹。我觉得特别有意思的是，我们才在13个月前聊过天，却仿佛是在不同的宇宙、不同的时代里交谈。I am incredibly excited. You've been talking about fun a lot. There is none of the existential threat. That doesn't exist for me as an emotional component. It is only there as an intellectual component, and the emotional component for me is 100% pure, unadulterated joy-and optimism and amazement that we've made computers do this. And I find it so interesting that we talked just 13 months ago because it's like we talked in different universes, different eras.

我很喜欢这句话。我觉得是列宁说的：有些几十年什么都没发生，而有些几个星期里，几十年的变化都发生了。过去九个月里，我们就见证了几十年的进步。我是说，想象一下你亲眼见证莱特兄弟飞上天空。就在前一天，《纽约时报》还会写道：“我们还要再等一万年才能飞起来。”可第二天，我们就飞上了天空；又过了几年，飞机便横渡了大西洋。整个世界彻底改变了。能身处那个时刻，真是一种恩赐。放眼整个人类历史，有多少人能在自己出生的同一个时代里，一直生活到那个时代结束？他们从未见过世界和社会彻底改变。而我们竟有幸经历了两次这样的时刻。I love this quote. I think it's Lenin. There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. I mean, imagine you're there when the Wright brothers take flight. Yesterday, the New York Times would write, "It's gonna be 10,000 years before we fly," and then the day after, we're up in the skies, and just a few years after that, there were cross-Atlantic planes. The whole world has completely changed. What a blessing to be there in that moment. If you zoom out and look at all of human history, how many humans got to live within the same epoch that they were born in? They never saw that complete change of the world and of society. And to have been blessed with two of those

感觉这真是一种莫大的荣幸。我亲眼见证了互联网从前互联网时代发展到后互联网时代，而现在又正处于前 AI、后 AI 的转变之中。这段经历真是太精彩了。我太幸运了。是啊，不过问题在于，这似乎是人类历史上发生得最快的一件事。feels just such a privilege. I got to see the internet-from pre-internet to post-internet, and then now pre-AI, post-AI. What an amazing run. How fortunate. Yeah, but the thing is, this feels like a thing that happened faster than anything else in human history.

没错。所以我会说大概在12月左右，也许是11月下旬，11月24日。这是——这正是那个确切的时刻。Correct. So I would say somewhere around December, maybe late November November 24. This isThat's the exact moment.

你知道，当他们谈论世界大战中一个国家入侵另一个国家之类的事情时，这——这就是我们谈论 AI 如何改变一切的方式。是的，而且它确实让许多优秀开发者的工作方式发生了转变。AI 从只做一些基本的自动补全，也许编写 5%、10%、15%、20% 的代码，转变为编写 80% 的代码。You know, when they talk about when one nation invades another in a world war or something like this, it- this is how we talk about AI changing everything. Yeah, theAnd it really just sh shifted for many great developers. It shifted to where AI is doing some, basic autocomplete, maybe writing 5, 10, 15, 20% of code to writing 80% of code.

或者 100。或者 100，没错，尤其是如果它不是面向公众的产品。对我来说，这就是为什么即使回顾我们一年前的对话，我的看法也没有变。我还是同样的看法。一年前，我不喜欢当时提供给我们的那种 AI 模式：要么是自动补全模式，要么是 AI 聊天机器人模式。正如我们之前聊过的，我确实很喜欢聊天机器人：一开始就是很棒的辅导工具，也是很好的联网搜索方式，但它并不是要取代我敲代码的东西。不过后来，智能体出现了。Or 100. Or 100, yeah, especially if it's not a public-facing product. To me, that's why even when I look back upon our conversation a year ago, I don't actually have different opinions. I have the same opinions. A year ago, I did not like the mode of AI we were offered. It was the autocomplete mode, or it was the AI chatbot mode. Now, the chatbot I actually liked, as we talked about. Great tutor right from the get-go, great way of looking things up on the internet, not what was gonna replace me chiseling code. But-then we get the agents.

智能体一开始大概新奇了五分钟，接着就变得令人惊叹，然后又让人忍不住惊呼：“我的天，这是通用人工智能（AGI）吗？”这一切都是从去年以来发生的，甚至仅仅是在过去九个月里。基本上，我们经历了这么几个阶段。我们处于智能体时代之前的 AI 阶段。我当时对此很兴奋，但它并没有从根本上改写我的游戏规则，也没有彻底改变我的工作方式。我仍然在一点点敲代码，只是多了个小帮手、小搭档，可以和它交流想法，也可以更高效地在线查找信息，等等。它只是让我能更高效地做我原本就在做的事，并没有改变我对……的情感联系。And the agents start out being curiosities for about five minutes, and then they get amazing, and then they get, "Oh my God, is this AGI?" And all of that happened since last year, even just within the last nine months. We have basically these few phases here. We have AI in the pre-agentic era. I was excited about that, but it was not fundamentally rewriting the rules of the game for me. It was not completely changing how I worked. I was still chiseling code, I just had a little helper, a little sidekick-who could bounce ideas off, and I could look up this information online and so forth in a more efficient way. It was just a more efficient way to do what I was already doing, and it didn't change the emotional connection I had to the

电脑。然后到了 2025 年 11 月 24 日。对我来说，Opus 4.5 是一道分水岭，突然间——我 24 日那天甚至都没试它。我想我是在 26 日试的。我给它安排了几个任务，然后意识到，它输出的质量和我自己写出来的东西惊人地接近。我记得自己只是往后一靠，心想：“刚才发生了什么？”“我们怎么会在短短几个月后，就从我夏天跟你聊的那种乱糟糟的自动补全，走到了现在这样？我们是怎么既提升了智能水平，又提升了易用性的？”关于智能体框架这个问题，我不知道 Opus 4.5 是否真的比我们夏天用的 Opus 4 聪明那么多，但它的能力……computer. Then we get to November 24th, 2025. Opus 4.5, to me, was the dividing line, where suddenlyI didn't even try it on the 24th. I think I tried it on the 26th. I give it a couple of tasks, and I realize that the quality of the output is uncannily close to what I would've written. And I remember just leaning back and thinking, "What just happened?" "How did we go from this autocomplete mess that I was talking to you about in the summer to this just a few short months later? How did we get both the increase in intelligence and then also the increase in usability?" This agent harness question where I don't know if Opus 4.5 was that much smarter than Opus 4, which is what we had in the summer, but its ability to

让它操控你的电脑、使用工具、检查自己的工作，并以某种方式运用它的智能，从而让它真正做出有意义的工作，这完全是另一回事。我认为，对几乎所有关注这件事、并在圣诞假期开始动手尝试的人来说，这就是后来发生的重大转变。这是我从 Shopify 以及其他员工众多的地方听到的情况：人们突然有了喘息的机会，突然有几周时间可以放松下来，看看事情进展如何，于是试着用了用，然后也经历了同样令人震撼的体验——这些智能体和我们以前见过的完全不是同一类东西。接下来，我到这一步时已经兴奋起来了。比如说，到了十二月，我就已经在重新审视自己之前的种种看法了——instrument your computer, to use tools, to check its own work, to apply its intelligence in such a way that you could get real meaningful work out of it, was completely different. And I think this is then the big change that happens for almost anyone who paid attention and started playing with it over the Christmas break. This is what I heard-from Shopify and other places with lots of employees who suddenly had a breather, suddenly had a couple of weeks to lean back and just look at what was going on, gave it a try, and had the same mind-blowing experience that these agents were of a different genre than what we had before. And then what we get to is, I'm already excited at this point. Like, by December, I'm already revisiting sort of all my priors-

然后就会说：“哇，它要是能做到这个，那也能做到那个吗？”“哦，能啊。”而且再看现在的 Opus 4.5，简直像个弱智模型。这就是这种进步的神奇之处：你会觉得自己已经达到某种境界……我记得当时我想：“如果我们拿到的最后一个模型就是这个，那我就满足了。我会很开心。”and going like, "Wow, if it can do this, can it also do that?" "Oh, yeah, it can." And again, Opus 4.5 now looks like a retarded model. And this is the magic of this progress, is you think you've reached somethingI remember thinking at the moment, "If this is the last model we get, I'll be set. I'll be happy."

接下来的 20 年里，我都可以用 Opus 4.5——对此我不会有任何怨言，因为看到一个智能体能以我想要的方式完成所有这些工作，实在是太令人惊叹了。这不仅仅是它能解决任务，还在于我可以看着它一路走来，然后说：“对。对。也许不该走那条路，但已经很接近了。”它还会给你两条提示。它会以我想要的方式，带你到达我想去的地方。它能写出我想合并的代码。用 Ruby 写的话，它甚至能写出真正赏心悦目的代码。Rust 就是另一回事了。但智能体真正成为我工作方式的延伸，这种能力非常新颖。不过，转眼间我们就等到了初春，然后……I could live with Opus 4.5 for the next 20 years-and you would hear no complaints from me because it was just so incredibly amazing to see an agent do all this work in the way that I wanted it done. Because it was not just about it being able to solve a task, it was also that I could look at its path there and go, "Yep. Yep. Maybe not there, but almost," and it would give you two notes. You'll get to where I wanted to go in the way I wanted to go there. You could produce code I wanted to merge. You could produce code that actually looked beautiful if it was written in Ruby. Rust, different question. But this ability for the agents to truly become an extension of how I wanted to work was very novel. But then we wait just until early spring, and

突然间，我们有了子代理，也有了能够把任务拆分开的框架。原本要花 Opus 很长时间才能完成的事情，突然只需五分之一、甚至十分之一的时间，因为任务可以拆分开来，转眼间就有八个子代理同时为你工作。suddenly we get sub-agents. We get harnesses that can subdivide the task, and something that would take Opus quite a while suddenly took a fifth of the time, a tenth of the time, because it could get chopped up and suddenly you got eight sub-agents working for you.

但对我来说，智能体时代最初的两个阶段仍然让我觉得，得由我来掌舵。我可以告诉它我想要什么、该去哪里找；它跑偏时，我还能稍微引导一下。这样我们最终也能到达目的地，而且速度会快得多。但我必须坐在驾驶座上。我得告诉它我想要什么，还得充当审核者，审查它输出的内容。直到现在这个夏天，随着 Opus 5、Fable、Sol（GPT Sol），以及一定程度上的一些开放权重模型问世，我们终于进入了一个新时代：我不再告诉它我们要去哪里，而是告诉它我遇到的问题，告诉它我脑海中那个模糊不清的想法。它会告诉我我们该往哪里走。But both of those two first phases of the agentic age, to me, still felt like I had to drive. I could tell it what I wanted, where to look for it, and steer it a little bit when it went off, and then we'll get there, and I would go much faster. But I had to be in the driver's seat. I had to tell it what I wanted, and I had to be the reviewer, the auditor of what was coming out. And then finally now, this summer, with Opus 5, Fable, and Sol, GPT Sol, and to a lesser extent, some of the open weight models, we've arrived at a new era where I'm not telling it where we're going. I'm telling it the problem I have. I'm telling it the fuzzy, vague idea I have. It tells me where we're going.

它会告诉我该走哪条路，我还是会看一眼，因为我这个人很好奇，也喜欢电脑，而且喜欢它带来的结果，但其实我也不太需要这么做了。在生成代码、选择路线的环节里，我已经变得可有可无。还记得早期 GPS 系统刚问世的时候吗？跟看地图相比，它们简直太神奇了，但你还是会想留心看着。它会不会把你开进港口？我记得当时有些报纸文章写道：“啊，GPS 太糟糕了，因为人们不注意，结果开进了港口。”上一次 GPS 把谁开进港口是什么时候？这种事现在早就不会发生了。事实上，现在汽车都能自己开了，对吧？而我们现在已经走到了这一步，我可以信任它。It tells me which path to take, and I will still look at it because I'm a curious person and I like computers and I like the outcome of it, but I really kinda don't have to. I've become optional in the part that produces the code that picks the route. Remember when early GPS systems came out? They were amazing compared to looking at a map, but you still wanted to pay attention. Is it gonna drive you in the harbor? I remember these newspaper articles. "Ah, GPS, they're terrible because people don't pay attention, they drive in the harbor." When was the last time GPS drove anyone in the harbor? Like, that just doesn't happen anymore. In fact, the cars now just drive themselves, right? And this is where we've arrived at now, that I can trust.

对于我目前从事的这个领域，我可以信任它，完全相信它会支持我。它不会做出什么蠢事；即便真做了，也能够恢复过来。嗯哼。我们应该提到，Correctprogrammers 所处的领域各种各样。有……For the domain I'm working in right now, I can trust it, and feel completely confident that it's gonna have my back. It's not gonna do something stupid, and if it does something stupid, it's gonna be able to recover. Mm-hmm. We should mention that there's all kinds of domains that Correctprogrammers operate in. There's

我其实也不知道，但我觉得开发中最常见的领域大概就是 Web 开发里的 CRUD。你有一个数据库，有一个面向用户的界面，它会来回处理一些事情；它可能只供一个人使用，也可能供多人、少数人，或者全世界的人使用。我觉得在这种情况下，确实——我是说，你真的可以做到 100% 的代码都由 AI 编写。而且，如果你是个优秀的程序员，对幕后发生的事情有很好的直觉，那你完全可以不看代码；至少这是我的经验。我不知道你需要多少编程经验，才能凭直觉大致判断幕后的一切是否运作正常。I actually don't know, but I think the most common domain in development is, like, web dev CRUD. You have a database. You have a user-facing interface, and it does something back and forth, and it could be internal to just one person, to multiple people, to a small number of people, or to the world. And I think for that, it's- I mean, you could really get to the 100% of code written by AI and really if you're a good programmer and you have a good intuition about what's happening behind the scenes, you can legitimately not look at the code, at least that's, that's been my experience. I don't know how much, prior experience with programming you need to have to kinda know that things are working correctly behind the scenes, like intuitively

通过观察连锁反应，也就是系统表现出的症状。但我认为，在那个领域里，这个比例接近 100%；而你还涉足其他领域，比如编写 Linux 发行版。在那里，可能就更需要关注，因为你对速度之类的东西很执着。也许你需要多看一看代码。再往下，还有安全关键系统，比如运行核电站或自动驾驶汽车。也许你需要更仔细地检查代码。by observing the ripple effects, the symptoms of the system. But I think for that domain, it's close to 100%, and then there's domains like you're also operating in, which is writing a Linux distribution. There, maybe there's more because you're obsessed with speed and all that kind of stuff. There, maybe you need to look at the code a little bit more. Then there's maybe safety critical systems all the way down to operating a nuclear power plant or a self-driving car. Maybe you need to look at the code more carefully.

是的，不过话虽如此，AI 在发现和修复安全漏洞方面的能力都强得惊人。这就是 Fable 事件引发轩然大波的原因。这个模型发现攻击者可以利用的漏洞的能力如此之强，以至于发布它根本不安全。因此，讽刺的是，当你审视这个领域时，会发现我们的智能似乎已经达到了几乎没有人类能够匹敌的水平，因为其中许多安全漏洞都需要把一连串招式组合起来才能利用。Yes, but that said, AI is insanely capable at both finding-and fixing security vulnerabilities. This was the whole blowup about Fable. This model was so capable of finding holes that a an attacker could exploit that it was simply not safe to release. So the irony here is that when you look at that field, it seems like we've reached levels of intelligence that virtually no human can match because many of these security holes are about stringing combo moves together.

你在这里发现了一个小漏洞，单独来看或许不算什么大问题，但如果再把它和另外四个漏洞结合起来，突然就能实现 RCE，也就是远程命令执行。You find one little vulnerability here that by itself might not be the worst thing in the world, but then you combine it with four others, and suddenly you have RCE, remote command execution.

从自动补全到自主工作From Autocomplete to Autonomous Work

能做到这件事的人非常少。他们通常在国家资助的组织或其他秘密行动中工作，不会只是四处闲逛、到处找东西。所以他们在这方面已经非常厉害了。这个 Linux 发行版让我彻底站到了 AI 这边。过去三个月我一直在开发 Omarchy，也就是几天前刚发布的这个版本，叫 Quatro。Humans who are able to do that are very rare. They usually work inside state-sponsored organizations or other clandestine operations. They're not just out and about finding things. So they've gotten so good at that. The Linux distribution is why I've gotten 100% AI pilled. Because I've been working on Omarchy for the last three months, this version that just dropped a few days ago called Quatro.

几乎从一开始，我就在做那个版本，智能体加速率就接近 100%；而在过去两个月里，它一直是 100%。我没有亲手编写过 Quatro 中发布的任何代码。真的吗？我审查过所有代码的整体结构。And almost right from the beginning I'm working on that version, the agent acceleration neared 100%, and in the last two months it has been 100%. I have not written Really?any of the code that's shipped in Quatro by hand. I've reviewed the shape of all of it.

我已经逐行审查了系统模型层中所有关键部分，但很多 UI 代码我都没看过。我也没看过很多辅助代码，而且没有任何新功能是我完全亲手编写的。不过在 Web 这部分，实际迭代 Basecamp 和 Hey——这两款拥有大量用户、代码库相对庞大的专业产品——事实证明，要用智能体全面加速开发，难度出乎意料地大。我们不久前刚发布了 Basecamp 5。它是 37signals 首款真正由智能体加速开发的产品。I've reviewed the individual lines of anything that's critical in the model layer of the system, and I've not looked at a bunch of the UI code. I have not looked at a bunch of the auxiliary code, and I've not written any of the new functionality entirely by hand. But then the web part, actually evolving Basecamp and Hey, our professional products that have lots of users and are relatively large code bases, have proven surprisingly tricky to fully accelerate with agents. We just released Basecamp 5 not too long ago. That was the first product at 37signals that was really agent accelerated.

因为从二月左右开始，我们就进入了最后冲刺阶段。那时，智能体已经很厉害了。我们也很早就掀起过一波热潮：“问题解决了。直接让设计师来编程就行。他们知道自己想要什么功能，也知道想把它做成什么样。那就——让他们凭感觉写代码吧。”于是我们就让他们凭感觉写代码了。Because we were in this final sprint phase from around February. By then, agents were already good. And we had this early surge of, "It's solved. We can just have the designers do the programming. They know what features they want. They know what shape they want it to take. Let's just- Let them vibe." And we let them vibe.

最后我们积累了大量 PR，单独来看，或许每个在当时都情有可原；但合在一起，却毁掉了系统的架构。我们实际上不得不手动清理，靠人力一点一点收拾残局，才能恢复到一种感觉上连贯、统一的架构。那种情况我们现在还残留了一点——顺便说一下，那是二月份的事了。现在情况已经大不一样了。And we ended up with a lot of PRs that individually perhaps could have been justified for a hot moment, taken all together, destroyed the architecture of the system. And we actually had to clean up manually, mop it up by hand, by human hand, to get back to an architecture that felt cohesive and coherent. So we still have a bit of that- that was February, by the way. Things are quite different now.

等等，先等一下。从中能得到什么教训？其中一个教训是不是说，在这个阶段，你必须是程序员，才能进行氛围编程？要想在现有的大型代码库上进行氛围编程——我明白——即便那些代码库很糟糕，如果你还想保留让那个系统发展到今天这一步的架构要素的话。Well, hold on a second. What's the lesson from that? Is one of the lessons from that that you have to be a programmer at this stage to be able to vibe code? To be able to vibe code on existing substantial I see. code bases, even if they're crud, if you wanna retain the element of architecture that got that system to where it was.

还有一点我已经强调过很多次：每当有人指责氛围编程的人只会产出一堆垃圾代码，我就会反问他们：“你们看过普通程序员的产出吗？”那也一样乱七八糟。你要是了解过很多优秀公司内部的情况，看看他们的代码库经历了 3,000 个开发者之手后变成什么样，就会发现简直糟透了。糟糕透了。Now, that's also a point where I've stressed many times that when people accuse vibe coders of being slob generators, I go right back at them and say, "Have you looked at the average programmer's output?" That is some other slob too. If you've looked at behind the scenes of many great companies and what their code bases look like after there's been 3,000 humans through them, they're awful. Absolutely awful.

你能说说你的直觉吗？我只是退一步，观察一下我们都依赖的各种应用，比如 Adobe Photoshop 之类的东西。我感觉这方面的开发进展似乎并没有加快。那么，Basecamp 这种已经非常成熟、拥有庞大用户群的产品，能给你什么启示呢？Can you tell me the intuition you have? I seem to just, stepping back and observing the different apps that we all rely on, I don't know, Adobe Photoshop, all this kind of stuff. There seems to be the progress on development there has not accelerated. So why is it, what lessons can you draw from Basecamp, like well-established, huge user base?

为什么我们没有看到这些成熟应用在新更新、新功能之类的方面出现那种特别迅猛的增长？原因有很多。我先说最关键的一点：只要有团队成员一起协作开发某样东西，瓶颈通常就不是实现，而是人的精力和沟通。Why aren't we seeing, like, super rapid increase in, like, new updates, features, all this kind of stuff in these well-established apps? Multiple reasons. I'll start with the first one that's the most critical. As soon as you're having human teams work together on something, the bottleneck is rarely implementation. It's human bandwidth and communication.

当你有一位产品经理、几位设计师，他们上面还有一位副总裁，再上面还有一位 CTO，而每个人都想参与塑造产品的过程，因为大家都在证明自己为何不可或缺时，生产力就会在这里消亡。过去三个月开发 Omarchy 的过程中，我有了一个顿悟：要获得那种神奇的 10 倍、100 倍，少数情况下甚至 1000 倍的生产力提升，你必须直接与智能体交互；你不能让另一个人介入、充当带宽中转，因为那样实在太慢了。When you have a product manager and a couple of designers and a VP above them and a CTO above them, and everyone wants to be part of the shaping process because we're all justifying why we're here, that's where all the productivity goes to die. The revelation I've had working on Omarchy the last three months is that to get that magical 10X, 100X, in a few rare cases, 1000X productivity boost, you have to interact with the agents directly, and you cannot intermediate that bandwidth with another human because it's simply too slow.

一方面，这多少有点令人失望。我是说，我喜欢和人打交道，也很享受合作。但这也意味着，如果还是由人来推动这些智能体发挥作用，而且还要经过三层审批以及大型企业的种种繁琐流程，我们就得适当降低对它们能力的预期。实施只是整个过程中的一小部分。还有一点是，大多数组织并不知道自己想要什么，也不知道该如何改进。他们的瓶颈不在实施，而在想法、愿景和品味。如果这些方面的能力没有超过你的执行能力，那也无济于事。你可以让一大堆糟糕的点子变成现实，然后呢？And on the one hand, that's a bit of a bummer. I mean, I like humans, and it's great to work together. But it also means we need to temper our expectations with what these agents can do if it's humans driving it, and you have three layers of approval and all the other machinery of a large corporation. The implementation part is only a small segment of it. The other thing I'd say is that most organizations don't know what they want. They don't know how to make it better. They're not bottlenecked on implementation. They're bottlenecked on ideas. They're bottlenecked on vision. They're bottlenecked on taste. And if you don't have those element in excess of your implementational capacity, it doesn't help. So you can make a lot of shitty ideas come true, then what?

你真打算把那个发布出去吗？听起来像是，我不知道，像是微软会搞出来的东西。这不是我们想要复刻的东西。那个流程实际上并不是……因为我们已经有过这个了。退一步想想，我们拥有的那些庞大组织，手头曾经有数以万计的程序员。Are you gonna ship that? That sounds like, I don't know, something coming out of Microsoft. That's not what we're trying to replicate here. That process is not actuallyBecause we already had this. If you step back for a moment and think of the towering organizations we have who have had tens of thousands of programmers at their disposal.

我的意思是，我这是在拿微软说事。我有时候很喜欢微软，但这件事上我就要说说他们了，因为几十年来，他们一直拥有取之不尽的资源和无穷的编程能力，对吧？这恰恰说明，仅仅能写出大量代码，并不能打造出优秀且引人入胜的软件。还有一点是，我们拥有这种能力大约才六个月。在人类生命周期中，内化并理解正在发生的事情，这点时间并不算长。I mean, I'm picking on Microsoft here. I love Microsoft some of the time, but I'll pick on them in this case because they have had endless resources, endless programming capacity for decades, right? This is what's showing us that just being able to write a lot of code does not produce great compelling software. Now, the other thing is we've had this capacity for about six months. That's not very long in human life cycle capacity of internalizing what's going on.

而且我觉得很有意思的是，人们对 AI 的批评居然是：它为什么发展得还不够快？你在说什么呢？我们从未见过任何其他进步能像 AI 这样迅猛，而你却因为过去三个月里我们还没彻底改造整个世界、把它变成软件福祉的乌托邦，就急不可耐了？And I think it's actually funny that the critique of AI is, why isn't it going faster? What are you talking about? We've not had any other form of progress that has moved as fast as AI, and you're impatient because in the last three months we haven't rewritten the whole world and made it a utopia of software goodness?

你基本上是在说，现在所有人都应该转用 Linux。其中一个理由是，我们可以把所有 Linux 上没有的软件都重写一遍，让它们能在 Linux 上运行。多年来，Linux 一直是我的挚爱，但我至今仍离不开 Windows、现在还有 Mac，其中一个原因就是视频剪辑软件 Premiere。我们会解决这个问题的。不过问题是，谁来为 Linux 开发 Premiere 和 Photoshop？而现在感觉一个人就能做到了。You're basically saying everybody should be switching to Linux now. One of the arguments is, like, we can rewrite all the software that's not available in Linux in Linux. Linux has been the love of my life for many years, but one of the reasons I'm still attached to Windows and now, uh, Mac is because of video editing, Premiere. We're gonna fix that. But So the question is, who's gonna build Premiere and Photoshop for Linux? And it feels like one person can now.

百分之百，一个人就能做到。所以，我也可以不耐烦。事实上，不管是我还是其他人，不耐烦都是亲自动手的第一步，对吧？就像——没错。还有一个由数万人组成的社区，他们使用 Adobe Premiere 或 DaVinci 这类非线性视频编辑器，都知道其中令人沮丧的地方。大家都有同感。你可以去 Reddit 看看，也可以看看论坛。所有人都知道。我不知道问题出在哪儿。可能是管理层，也可能是会议。你们一直讨论的那些事——公司内部的官僚作风，拖慢了功能开发的进度。但感觉只要让一些开发人员带着一群智能体放手去做，……100% one person can. And so, and I'm allowed to be impatient. In fact, me or anyone else, impatience is the first step of doing it yourself, right? Like Correct. and there's a community of tens of thousands of people that use Adobe Premiere or DaVinci, all these non-linear video editors, that know the frustrations. Everybody shares them. You can look at Reddit. You can look at the forums. Everybody knows it. Uh, I don't know what it is. It may be the management. It may be the meetings. All the things you've always discussed is the, The bureaucracy that's inside companies that's slowing everything down in the development of features. But it feels like there- if you just let some of the developers loose with a bunch of agents,

你可以把这些问题都解决掉。但话说回来，根据你所说的一切，也许要做到这一点，办法就是从头开始，也许借助开源，或者由某人创办一家新公司——因为如今在大公司里，想通过让开发者放手构建来真正加速迈入智能体时代，是很难的。you can fix all that. But again, based on everything you're saying, maybe the way to do that is to start over from scratch, maybe through open source, or somebody launches a new company that within large companies now it's hard to, to really accelerate into the agentic era by letting developers just build.

这就是经典的创新者窘境。这些公司已经把旧有的做法做得炉火纯青，也早已根深蒂固，因此它们整个组织架构、管理层级和流程，都适应着一个早已不复存在的时代。但你没法让它们转向。它们就像超级油轮，说转就转不了。这就是为什么科技行业终于迎来了如此剧烈的动荡。This is the classic innovator's dilemma. These companies have gotten so good, so established at the old way, and therefore their entire structure, management layers, processes are tuned for a time that no longer exists. But you can't pivot that. These are super tankers. It just doesn't happen. This is why we're finally getting this upset in the technology industry.

有一段时间，我对苹果和谷歌在移动领域形成的双头垄断非常不满，因为我觉得移动设备是我们最重要的计算平台，却看不到有什么办法能撼动高踞其上的谷歌或苹果——它们掌控一切，坐收过路费。For a while, I was very upset about the duopoly between Apple and Google on mobile, because it felt like mobile was the most important computing platform that we had, and I could not see a path to unseat either Google or Apple sitting on top of that, controlling everything, taking their toll booth money.

但如今格局已经变了。它不再是最重要的平台。手机很重要，但还有许多其他形态的设备即将出现，无论是眼镜、耳机，还是其他各种设备，如今都在探索之中。而计算平台本身也迎来了变局；如果看桌面端，这大概是 40 年来首次出现这样的情况。Linux 从 1991 年就已经存在了。But the game has changed. This is no longer the most important platform. Mobile phones are important, but there's also a lot of other form factors coming, whether it's glasses or it's earpieces or whatever else have you. It's all in play now, but the computing platforms themselves are in play for the first time in probably 40 years, if you look at the desktop. Linux has been around since '91.

它并没有在桌面端起飞或占据主导地位，却接管了其他一切。你桌上的所有设备、冰箱、烤面包机，所有东西都运行着 Linux，唯独你的电脑除外。有意思的是，你的 Android 实际上也是 Linux，只不过经过了充分封装，以至于你几乎认不出来。但现在出现了一个突破口，而这个突破口恰恰如你所说：如果有一款你依赖的软件把你束缚在 Windows 上，那么你完全可以亲自着手重写它。也许你无法做到 100% 覆盖，但这就像那个关于 Microsoft Office 的老笑话。It's not taken off or taken over on the desktop. It's taken over everything else. All the devices you have on your desk, your fridge, your toaster, everything runs Linux, except for your computer. Now, funnily enough, your Android is actually Linux, but wrapped so sufficiently that you can't really recognize it. But now there's an opening, and the opening is exactly as you say it. If there's a piece of software you depended on that bound you to Windows, it is completely within reach for you personally to start rewriting it. And maybe you won't get to 100% coverage, but this is the old joke about Microsoft Office.

“我只用5%。”是啊，但我们每个人用的都是不同的5%。那如果我们都自己打造属于自己的那5%呢？如果我只把自己需要的功能拿出来，自己实现呢？这完全是另一种挑战，而智能体现在、就在今天，已经非常擅长应对这种挑战了，我也已经反复做过很多次。所以，我发现最近开始使用智能体后，最不可思议的变化之一就是，我成了一个多语言程序员——在此之前，我绝对不是。我原本主要是写 Ruby 的，必要时才稍微折腾一下 Bash。而在过去两个月里，我写了 C++，还写了三个已经随 Omarchy Quattro 发布的应用。我写了一个……"I only use 5%." Yeah, well, we all use a different 5%. Well, what if we all just build our own 5%? What if I just took the functionality that I need and just did that? That is a completely different challenge and one agents are incredibly capable of doing right now, today, and I've done it a lot of times over. So one of the amazing things I've found with the latest agent engaged is I have become a polyglot programmer, something I was absolutely not before. I was a Ruby programmer--first and foremost, and then I dabbled a little bit in Bash--when I had to. And in the last two months, I've written C++. I've written three applications that have shipped in Omarchy Quattro. I wrote a

写作应用。我当时在用一款叫 Typora 的应用，它是一款非常棒的应用，超棒的应用，而它本身又是基于另一款叫 iA Writer 的应用；iA Writer 才是我在 Mac 上真正钟爱的，用来写简洁、清爽的 Markdown……writing app. I was using this app called Typora, which is a very nice app Great, great appwhich in itself is based on another app called iA Writer, which was my real love on the Mac-for a clean, simple Markdown

Omarchy 与 Linux 桌面Omarchy and the Linux Desktop

写作环境。我所有的文章都在那里写。后来我转到了 Linux，没法使用 iA Writer，于是改用了另一个叫 Typora 的工具。它是一款共享软件，功能很多，但我根本用不着。大约六七周前，我想：“你知道吗？我其实只需要 Typora 5% 的功能，而 Typora 本身已经是个基础应用了。”writing environment. That's where I write all my essays. And then I moved to Linux, and I couldn't get iA Writer, so I moved over to this other tool called Typora. It was a piece of shareware, and it had a lot of features I just didn't need. And about six weeks, seven weeks ago, I thought, "Do you know what? I only need 5% of Typora," which is already a basic app.

我就是直接告诉那个代理，让它开始动手，告诉它我想用 C++ 和 Qt 来写，因为这很符合我用 Quattro 打造的东西的美学风格。我想大概 20 分钟后，它就做出了第一个版本。我开始用起来，发现还不太对。两天之内，我就放弃了 Typora；从那一刻起，我所有的文章都是在 Omawrite 里写的。I literally told the agent to get going, that I wanted it written in C++ and Qt, because that would fit well with the aesthetic of what I was building with Quattro. And in, I think, about 20 minutes, it had the first version. I started using it, and it wasn't quite right. Within two days, I'd given up Typora, and I wrote and have written all of my essays since that moment in Omawrite.

我能向你请教一下，听听你对某件事的建议和看法吗？我发现，用智能体其实可以写出类似 Typora 的替代品，并且能根据你的需求量身定制，完全以你一个人为中心。还有一种做法是，先以一个用户为出发点，再逐步扩展到更广泛的受众。我确实为自己写过很多软件，也发现这样更容易实现，而且更能满足我的实际需求。比如，我自己写了一个视频编辑器，只为我一个人使用就很容易做到。Can I ask for your advice and your vision about something? So what I find with agents, you can actually write something like a replacement for Typora that is perfectly customized to you, to your needs Correct with just one user in mind. And then there's a version of that that is starts with one user in mind but expands to a larger audience. So I've actually written a large number of software just for me, and I find it easier to do and better to get my situation done. For example, I have a video editor I've written, which is very easy to do just for me.

我从来没有像你那样，做出过一个有很多人使用的东西，这让我有点害怕，也有点望而生畏。那么，在如今这个智能体时代，你会怎样迈出一步，真正做出能解决自己问题的东西？我觉得这是很棒的构建方式，但又该如何把它拓展到对其他人也真正有用？你有什么建议吗？你是否也觉得，只为自己做一个工具实在太容易了，这本身也是个问题？I've never, unlike you, built something that's used by a large number of people, and I find that a bit scary and intimidating. So, like, at this, with this agentic age, how do you take a step to actually build something that solves your problem, which I think is a beautiful way to build, but also expand it to actually useful for other people? Like, is there advice you can give, and do you also see the problem of how easy it is to just build a tool for yourself?

没错，但这比你想的简单。等你为自己把工具做好后，只要告诉你的智能代理把它放到 GitHub 上就行。你甚至不用再做任何事。它会自己想办法把那个仓库放到 GitHub 上，会写一份不错的 README，也会开始使用 GitHub Releases，让你能够跟踪进展。它会成为比你更出色的软件维护者——因为在管理开源软件那些繁琐事务时，它比你有耐心得多，也勤勉得多。Yes, but it is simpler than you think. By the time you're done building the tool for yourself, you simply tell your agent to put it on GitHub. You don't even have to do anything else. It will figure out how to put that repo on GitHub. It'll write a nice README. It'll start using GitHub releases so that you can track things. It'll actually be a better software maintainer than you could ever be-because it is far more patient, it is far more diligent in doing the drudgery of managing open source software than you are.

这样你就可以尽情享受自己构建的软件，并随心所欲地不断改进它。说到这里，就涉及我们在开源领域争论已久的一个大问题：AI 贡献对维护者来说究竟是好是坏？现在，很多维护者都相当不满，因为他们突然收到大量针对自己软件的拉取请求和贡献，而提交者可能并不是优秀的程序员，甚至根本不是程序员。看到这种争论，我不禁想：“你在开玩笑吧？”And you can simply get on with the joy of using the software that you built and evolving it as you see fit. Now, this gets into the big argument we've been having in open source for a while. Is AI contributions good or bad for the maintainer? There's a lot of maintainers right now who are quite upset about the fact that they're suddenly getting a huge influx of pull requests, of contributions from people who may not be the best programmers or programmers at all-towards their software. I look at that argument and go, "Are you kidding me?"

这里有源源不断的免费贡献，你可以接受，也可以不接受，可你却在抱怨这些贡献竟然存在？听起来简直就像是在说：“我的牛排太多汁了，龙虾也太奶油了。”你到底在抱怨什么？这简直太不可思议了。这正是我们长期以来宣称会成为开源魔力的东西：我们所有人都可以为它作出贡献。但当然，这从来就不是真的。只有一小部分人会为开源作出贡献，而且他们都是技艺高超的巫师。所以，这算是一个小小的改革时刻。我们与计算机之间曾经存在着一道中介，而这道中介就是由一群被称为程序员的神职人员和祭司构成的阶层。可突然之间，他们在这里又被去中介化了，是由……Here is a vein of free contributions that you can take or don't take, but you're complaining about the fact that they're there? It sounds straight out of My steak is too juicy and my lobster too buttery. What are you complaining about? This is the most amazing thing. This is what we proclamated for so long was going to be the magic of open source, that we could all contribute to it, but it was, of course, never true. There was only a small subset of people who contribute to open source, and that was the very highly skilled wizards. So this is a bit of a reformation moment. We had this disintermediation between us and the computer, and it was this class of clerics and priests called programmers, and suddenly they're being disintermediated here by was

就像路德在16世纪把《九十五条论纲》钉在门上那样？其中有一条显然是关于中介的：你应该能够直接接触更高层次的智慧。嗯哼。但你不需要那些巫师来确保代码库始终保持高水准吗？it the 95 theses by Luther in 1500s, nailing them to the door? And one of those was very clearly about the intermediation, that you should have direct access to the higher intelligence. Mm-hmm. But don't you need the wizards to keep a high bar of excellence in the code base?

百分之百是你自己做的，而这也一直是开源领域的事实——这是第二个让我特别恼火的论点。我做开源项目已经25年了，确实看过成千上万、甚至可能数万名程序员的产出。我觉得自己有足够的统计依据断言：大多数程序员都很烂。100% you do, which is also something that's always been true about open source, which is the second argument that really grinds me. I've been running open source projects for 25 years. I have literally looked at the output of thousands, if not tens of thousands of programmers. I feel like I have the statistical basis to assert that most programmers, they suck.

我并不是按字面听起来的那个意思说他们不行。这就是我刚才在这里停顿了一小会儿的原因。我的意思是，他们不行，是指他们不会写出我想让他们写的代码。他们提交 bug 报告时，不会附上所有相关信息。他们在描述拉取请求时，不会说明背后的原因。他们懒得补上必要的代码注释。他们不会复查自己的工作。他们不会编写单元测试。他们不会做好创建优质软件所需的所有这些事情。但你知道谁会做这些事吗？只要你告诉他们，智能体就会做。他们执行指令时非常勤勉，大多数时候都是如此，有时甚至勤勉过了头。但这实际上意味着，如果你把普通程序员以及他们的拉取请求……And I don't mean that in the way it sounds. That was why I paused for a hot second here. I mean, they suck in the sense that they don't write the code I want to have written. They don't prepare their bug reports with all the relevant information. They don't detail their pull requests with the why. They don't bother to fill in needed code comments. They don't double-check their work. They don't write unit tests. They don't do all of these things it takes to create good software. But do you know who'll do all that stuff? Agents, if you tell them to. They're very diligent at following your instructions, most of the time, sometimes to a fault. But it actually means that if you take the median programmer and their pull requests towards

对于一个普通的开源项目来说，他们已经被智能体比下去了。比起人类写的 pull request，我更愿意收到智能体为我的某个项目写的 pull request，而且不只是因为质量更好。另一个原因是，如果我直接拒绝它，我会觉得没那么过意不去。毕竟又不是你亲自写的，我只要看看你的智能体替你写了什么，然后说一句：“呃，不想要。”an average open source project, they're already getting outclassed by agents. I would rather get an agent-written pull request to one of my projects than I'd get one written by a human, and it's not just because the quality's better. It's also because I feel a lot less bad if I just reject it. You didn't even write it, so I can simply look at what your agent wrote on your behalf and go, "Eh, don't want it."

在开源领域，一直都是这样。事实上，我认为这是开源项目维护者面临的问题之一：他们往往背负着太多的神经质和焦虑，以至于觉得自己有义务为每一项贡献做足一切，好让它进入代码库。其实完全不是这样。你完全可以直接说“不”，或者更好一点，说“不用了，谢谢”。That's always been true in open source, and in fact, I think this is one of the problems with open source maintainers. They have way too much ball of neuroticism and anxiety that requires them to look upon any contribution as an obligation on their part to do everything to get that to land in the code base. That's not true at all. You can simply say, "No," or even better, you can say, "No, thank you."

而且，如果你进入这样一种状态，意识到你的项目可以按照你的愿景和路线图存在并发展，那么在智能体时代，拒绝那些你不想要的贡献就会容易得多，因为你甚至不会给任何人添麻烦，也不会伤害谁的感情。它不过是个铁皮机器人，铁皮机器人可不会介意。事实上，生产铁皮机器人的厂商，也就是那些实验室，巴不得你白白浪费 token。反正他们照样能拿到钱。And if you get into the mode of realizing that your project is allowed to exist and evolve according to your vision, according to your roadmap, it becomes so much easier in the agentic age to decline the contributions you don't want because you don't even inconvenience or hurt the feelings of a human. It's just a clanker, and the clanker won't mind. In fact, the producers of clankers, the labs, love when you spend tokens in vain. They get paid just the same.

所以在我看来，现在绝对是开源软件维护者有史以来最好的时代。我们不仅能收到大量由智能体提交的精彩拉取请求，而且各项要求都一应俱全；还可以发掘那些过去没有机会参与项目贡献的人所拥有的创造力。So, in my opinion, this is the absolute best time to ever have been an open source software maintainer. Not only do we get this wealth of glorious pull requests made by agents with all the boxes ticked, we also get to tap into a creativity of people who did not have access to contribute to a project before.

我运营 Omarchy 项目已有一年多，而在过去三个月开发 Quattro 期间，我合并了 1,000 多个拉取请求。其中相当多的拉取请求是由非传统程序员撰写的，或者是由其他领域的程序员撰写的，他们并不从事 Linux 操作系统或发行版开发。I've been running the Omarchy project now for a little over a year, and in the last three months working on Quattro, I have merged over 1,000 pull requests. Quite a lot of those pull requests were written by people who were not classical programmers, or were programmers in other domains, not Linux operating system or distribution development.

正是因为有了智能体，他们才能贡献出自己的好点子，而我也能从中挑选最好的——因为这些点子就在那里。否则，那些想法就只会留在他们脑子里。再说，这不正是开源的目的所在吗？我们借助整个该死的地球的集体智慧和创造力，并将其汇聚到一个共享资源中，让我们所有人都能从大家共同的努力中受益。They were able to contribute their good ideas because of agents, and I got to cherry-pick the very best of that-because it was there. Otherwise, those ideas would just have lived inside their heads. Again, Is that is not the purpose of open source, that we tap into the collective intelligence and creativity of the whole goddamn planet, and we channel that towards a commons where we all benefit from the combined efforts of everyone.

现在，我想 Omarchy 上目前大约有 400 个尚未合并的拉取请求，差不多是上周的两倍。所以增长确实在加速，不过工具也在进步。我已经不再逐一审查每个拉取请求了。其实我有一段时间没这么做了。我会让智能体替我审查，然后它们会给我一份摘要，说明某个请求是否已准备好交由人来决定——我们该不该合并？Now, there's currently, I think, about 400 unmerged pull requests on Omarchy, about double what it was a week ago. So the acceleration is real, but so are the tools. I'm not reviewing every pull request anymore. I haven't been reviewing them for quite some time now. I have the agents-review them for me-and then they will give me a summary about whether something is ready for the decision, the human decision. Should we merge or should we not merge?

我不需要查看所有那些错误、重复或糟糕的拉取请求。智能体可以替我把这些糟粕筛掉。我只需看看那些珍珠——已经准备就绪的好点子，以及智能体代我在虚拟机中验证过的 bug 修复。复制和管理开源项目的所有繁琐工作，正以闪电般的速度消失，而留给我们的，是那些精华、最有价值的部分，是软件开发的骨髓——决定这东西应该做什么、应该走向何方。I don't need to look at all the pull requests that are either wrong, duplicated, bad. An agent can sort that chaff away from me. I just get to look at the pearls-the good ideas that are ready to go, the bug fixes that the agent has validated in a VM on my behalf. All the drudgery of replicating and managing open source projects is evaporating at lightning speed, and we are left with the, with the golden juicy parts, the bone marrow of software development-deciding what should this thing do and where should it go.

你觉得好点子——归根结底，好点子的核心——是源自人类思维的吗？那么个人贡献者的工作，比如说，可以由智能体来完成吗？还是说，PR 最终还是需要一个人类的想法？比如如何改进 Omarchy、所有这些不断涌入的……还是说这一切都可以只靠一群智能体来完成？Do you think the good ideas, ultimately the kernel of the good ideas originated in the human mind, so the individual contributors Like, can it be done by agents, or is the PR ultimately requires a human idea? Like how to improve Omarchy, all those incomingOr can it all just be a pool of agents?

那就是我在 11 月 24 日到 2 月 28 日的第一个智能体时代中，对智能体的模式和思考方式。我当时以为，所有想法都将由人类提出。他们会告诉自己的智能体要构建什么，然后智能体就会开始行动。That was the mode and the way I was thinking about agents in the first agentic age from November 24 to February 28. I thought all the ideas would originate with the humans. They would tell their agents what to build, and off they went.

开源、维护者与贡献Open Source, Maintainers, and Contribution

我完全不认为那种说法现在还成立。我见过一些你们难以置信的东西：模型提出的想法如此出色，甚至让我这个平时还挺以自己的好点子为傲的人都感到自愧不如。智能体的创造性思维能力极强，而那些仍然停留在“智能体只是鹦鹉、只会复述已有想法”这种分析上的人，根本没有意识到过去六到九个月里取得的进步。I don't think that's true anymore at all. I have seen things you people wouldn't believe, ideas coming out of models so great that it makes me humble-as a person who otherwise prides himself on having good ideas. The agents are incredibly capable of creative thought, and folks who are still stuck in the analysis that agents are parrots-just regurgitating the ideas that are already there are delusional about the progress that's been made in the last six to nine months.

所以，现在听你说话的一些人会说，DHH这是老毛病又犯了，得了所谓的“AI精神病”。你能不能尽可能有力地论证一下：你确实处于一种妄想状态，就像《飞越疯人院》里那样？然后你能反驳这种说法吗？我现在处于一种谵妄状态。这就是我现在的状态。因为我和计算机打了40年交道，而就在过去两个月里，我见到的那些东西，是我以前从未见过的。So some people listening to you right now will say DHH is suffering from the old case of AI psychosis. Can you steel man the case that you are in fact experiencing in a state of delusion, like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and can you argue against it? I'm in a state of delirium. That's what the state I'm in. Because I have been working with computers for 40 years, and I've never seen the things that I've seen in just the last two months.

整个职业生涯，整个人生，都把对计算机的热爱作为重心，投入工作时间，甚至更多时间；而这一切突然被彻底颠覆，突然被彻底改写。当然，我欣喜若狂。看到这样的现实，谁能不欣喜若狂？如果你没有欣喜若狂，或者至少非常兴奋——其实，我想这甚至都不对。如果你没有意识到这一刻的重大意义，那才是妄想，那才是精神病态。精神病态，就是相信这个世界几乎没有变化。我们不过是有了一些电子鹦鹉，把东西复述给我们听。在我看来，人们之所以会提出这种论调，实际上是因为他们看不到进步带来的成果。这正是你刚才提到的那一点。A whole career, a whole life dedicating to the love of computers as my main focus for the working hours and then some, suddenly completely upended, suddenly completely rewritten. Of course I'm delirious. Who looking at this reality is not? If you are not delirious or at the very least very excitedActually, I guess that's not even true. If you're not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that's the delusion. That's the psychosis. The psychosis is believing that the world is barely different. We just have some electronic parrots reciting things to us. Now, in my opinion, the reason this argument is actually brought up is because people are not able to see the fruits of the progress. That goes to your point earlier.

惊艳的软件在哪儿？美国GDP同比增速怎么还没飙到12%？首先，稍安勿躁。它连一年都还没到呢，妈的。其次，就我个人而言，我觉得自己确实拿出了真东西。Omarchy Quattro 周五上线了。已经有数万人下载，而且他们喜欢它。他们非常喜欢。Where is the amazing software? Why isn't American GDP running at 12% year over year? First of all, give it a minute. It hasn't even been a year, goddammit. But second of all, I feel on my own account, I have actually brought the pudding. Omarchy Quattro launched on Friday. It's been downloaded by tens of thousands of people. And they like it. They like it a lot.

我们应该提到，在这里转向 Perplexity 时，Omarchy 是一个以 Hyprland Wayland 平铺式合成器为核心、高度秉持自身理念的 Arch Linux 桌面发行版。它由 David Heinemeier Hansson（DHH）创建，是一套精心打磨的开发者工作站环境，拥有统一协调的视觉风格，并预先配置了许多日常工具。We should mention that going to Perplexity here, Omarchy is a highly opinionated Arch Linux-based desktop distribution centered on the Hyprland Wayland tiling compositor. It was created by David Heinemeier Hansson, DHH, as a polished developer workstation set up with a cohesive visual style and many everyday tools already configured.

我这么说吧：Omarchy 是一个漂亮、现代且有鲜明主张的 Linux 系统。它是 macOS 和 Windows 的替代操作系统，而且简直棒极了。至于 Quattro 这回事，你们正朝着智能体时代迈进。没错，那就是我们刚刚发布的最新版本，这也挺有意思的。Let me put it. Omarchy is a beautiful, modern, and opinionated Linux system. It's an alternative operating system to macOS and Windows, and it's freaking amazing. And the Quattro thing is you're pushing towards the age of agents. That's right. That's the latest version that we just dropped out, which is also funny.

Omarchy 项目才刚满一年多一点。去年夏天，我在勒芒 24 小时耐力赛的几场比赛之间创立了它——那时我看了太多关于 Linux 崛起的 YouTube 视频，结果就此着了迷。我开始着手打造这次尝试创建更好的 Linux 操作系统的第二个版本。上次我们聊到的第一个版本叫 Omakub，它构建在一个名为 Ubuntu 的现有系统之上，表现还不错。但由于我从技术栈更底层的七层开始构建，我得以把完全不同的雄心倾注到新版本 Omarchy 中，不过那时还处在 AI Agent 尚未兴起的时代。起初，那些批处理脚本都是我手写的，后来我亲眼见证了事情在中途发生转变。The Omarchy project is only a year old and a little bit. I started it last summer in between sessions at the 24 Hours of Le Mans-where I had watched one too many YouTube videos on Linux Rising and got bitten by that bug. Started working on this second iteration of my attempt at creating a better Linux operating system. The first iteration we talked about last time was called Omakub, was built on top of an existing system called Ubuntu, and it was fine. But the ambition I was able to pour into the new version, Omarchy, because I started seven layers deeper down the stack, was completely different, but it was still done in a pre-agentic world. I wrote all those batch scripts by hand in the beginning, and then I got to see the midway point where things changed over.

我做过几个版本的 Omarchy，只有部分环节借助智能体提速；三个月前，我则彻底火力全开，百分之百的内容都由智能体编写，但由我来掌舵。这最终带来了截然不同的体验，也造就了一个截然不同的操作系统，因为我的雄心壮志突然有了无限的发挥空间。I did a couple of versions of Omarchy that had partial agent acceleration, and then three months ago, it was full throttle, 100%, everything is written by agents but steered by me. And that just ended up being a very different experience and a very different operating system because I was suddenly granted a limitless ceiling on my ambition.

我可以看看 Windows、Mac 或其他 Linux 系统里的任何功能，然后说：“我想要这个。”智能体就会把它做出来。所以，突然之间，我想要的一切都触手可及，这让我有点飘飘然。要是一个精灵突然从瓶子里蹦出来，对你说：“你想要什么都行。你曾经梦想过的操作系统功能，我都能给你做出来；大多数只要五分钟，有些要二十分钟，要是我们真的放开手脚，那就得花两个小时。”谁不会飘飘然呢？I could look at any feature in Windows, on Mac, on other Linux systems and say, "I want that," and the agents would deliver. So everything I wanted was suddenly within reach, which meant that I got a little delirious. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, "You can have whatever you want. Every feature you've ever dreamed of in an operating system-I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it's gonna take me two hours."

嗯哼。你看过电影《梦之安魂曲》吗？所以，这里有一种类似毒品的效果。我个人觉得——我们会从很多层面来谈这个，但突然之间有这么大的力量掌握在我们手中，实在让人难以招架；而且很难知道该怎么做，就像《霍比特人》里那样，或者类似的情形。我发现自己真的被多任务搞得不堪重负，几乎快要精疲力竭了。对这么多事情都超级兴奋，但归根结底，回头看时，你会想专注于一件事，真正把它交付出去。我没有那种感觉。我没有不堪重负的感觉。我没有恐惧感，也没有扭曲感，因为我有一个使命。Mm-hmm. Have you seen Requiem for a Dream, the movie? So the, There's a drug-like effect here. I find it personally- We'll talk about many levels of this, but it is overwhelming how much power is placed in our hands so suddenly, and it's very hard to know, it's like with "The Hobbit" or something, what to do with it, and I find myself truly overwhelmed with the multitasking, On the verge of almost burnt out. Super excited about so many things, but ultimately looking back, you want to focus on one thing and really ship I don't have that sense. I don't have the sense of overwhelm. I don't have the sense of dread. I don't have the sense of distortion because I have a mission.

我要去往某个地方，因此，我可以把所有这些新力量都引向——是的，这很棒——一个单一的目标和结果：创造出完美的计算机。因此，我所有关于人工智能的探索都聚焦于此。不过，我还有一份日常工作。I'm going somewhere, and therefore, I can channel all this new power towards Yeah, it's wonderfula singular goal and outcome, creating the perfect computer. And therefore, all my investigations with AI are focused towards that end. Now, I also have a day job.

我们在那里也使用智能体，而且这同样是针对某些特定成果的。但通过 Omarchy 的体验，我得以直接接入自己的后脑勺，提升了脑海中涌现的想法与屏幕上生成的软件之间的带宽。这就像从拨号上网升级到光纤。我记得你在播客里提到过，埃隆谈到了人类实际拥有的带宽——Neuralink 和其他项目正试图提升的正是这种带宽。And we also use agents there, and that's also targeted towards sort of specific outcomes. But with the Omarchy experience, I got to tap in straight in the back of my head and increase the bandwidth between ideas arriving in my brain and software emerging on the screen. It was like going from dial-up-to fiber. I think on your podcast, Elon talked about the actual human bandwidth-that Neuralink and other projects are trying to accelerate.

比如说，我们现在沟通所依赖的带宽相当低，因为我们受认知能力所限，也受语速所限。但你在与一群智能体协同工作时，就不会受到这些因素的限制。不过我得先说明一下，如果九个月前听到自己这么说，我大概会给它贴上“AI 精神病”的标签。我觉得这个说法也挺恰当，因为九个月前这么说的人并没有真正交付产品。我认为这才是根本区别：有些人很早就看到了这一点。我其实并不算特别早。正如我们之前谈到的，我当时相当怀疑，也在某些方面使用 AI，但我并不是第一个下载 Claude Code 的人。我想鲍里斯是在年底发布它的……Like, the bandwidth we're communicating over right now is quite low because we're limited by our cognition. We're limited by the rate of speech. You're not limited by those things when you're working with a swarm of agents. Now, let me caveat this by saying, if I'd heard myself talk like this-nine months ago, I would probably have used the label AI, AI psychosis. I think it would be fitting because nine months ago when people were talking like this, they weren't shipping, and I think that's the ultimate difference, that there were people who saw this early. I was not actually that early. As we've talked about, I was rather skeptical, and I was using AI in certain ways, but I was not the first person who downloaded Claude Code. I think Boris released that in end of

二月。我觉得我直到九月才安装 Claude Code。所以那大约六个月里，先行者们已经看到了未来模样的些许曙光。那时还没真正到来，因为智能还不够，运行框架也还没就位，但他们已经看到了曙光。我却没有。Tobi，也就是 Shopify 的 CEO Tobi Lütke，如今也算是我在 Omarchy 项目上的搭档，他也被 Omarchy 圈粉了。February. I don't think I installed Claude Code until September. So there was about six months there where pioneers saw these glimmers of what the future was gonna look like. It wasn't there yet because the intelligence wasn't there. The harnesses weren't there, but they could see the glimmers. I couldn't. Tobi, Tobi Lütke, the CEO of Shopify and now my partner in crime on this Omarchy project in part, he's gotten pilled with Omarchy as well.

他很早就看到了这些事，也试着告诉我，但我当时没看出来。我没看到他看到的东西。你那时候就是个唱反调的人。是啊，我当时还在地球上。而他……他早就已经登上火箭，正飞向太空了。我记得自己确实读过他写给公司的备忘录，也就是那份关于 AI 的备忘录，当时还想：“啊，感觉有点夸张了。”He saw these things very early, and he tried to tell me, and I wasn't seeing it. I was not seeing what he was seeing. You were a hater. Yes. I was still on Earth. And he wasHe had already boarded the rocket and was heading towards space. I remember actually reading his memo to the company, the AI memo, and thinking, "Ah, seems a little much."

就像，你把一件我还没法切实感受到的事情说得特别重大。因为这东西的成果在哪儿呢？我试着用它。它写出来的代码我不喜欢。它还总想打断我。你这是从哪儿得出这些的？呃，我明白。我完全明白。如果你没见识过当下智能所能达到的水平，那你看着某个人，心里当然会想：“这人听起来有点疯疯癫癫的。”因为直到现在为止，你的所有经验都会告诉你，他们确实挺疯的。因为回顾计算机编程的历史，在过去四五十年里，人们一直在承诺，普通人只要通过交谈就能编写代码。我们会有第四代语言。Lisp 曾经……Like, you're making a big deal out of something that I cannot yet feel is a tangible thing. Because where's the output of this? I try using it. It writes code I don't like. It wants to interrupt me all the time. Where are you getting this from? Uh, so I get it. I totally get it. If you've not seen what the current quality of intelligence can produce, of course you're gonna look at someone and go like, "They sound a little nutty," because all your experience up until this point would tell you that they are nutty. Because if you look at the history of computer programming, for the last 40, 50 years, people have been promising that regular people could write code just by talking. We're gonna have fourth generation languages. Lisp was once upon a time

被提出时，Smalltalk 被描述为这类环境：普通人可以用它们编写自己的应用程序。但除了像 Microsoft Access 数据库或 Excel 电子表格这样的东西之外，这一切都没有成为现实。它们确实是面向终端用户的编程环境，但和我们现在能做到的完全不是一回事。presented, Smalltalk was presented as these environments that would let regular people write their own applications, and none of it came true in the sense beyond, like, Microsoft Access databases or Excel spreadsheets. That, those are end user programming environments, but it's nothing like what we're able to do now.

然后，我是说，我甚至不是在谈终端用户。我是以我自己的身份在说，作为一个编程 25 年的人，看到……And then, I mean, I'm not even talking about end user. I'm talking as me, someone who's been programming for 25 years, seeing

AI精神病、风险与怀疑主义AI Psychosis, Risk, and Skepticism

产出、提速、质量，然后把它交付出去。我认为，这会很快彻底改变整个讨论。少数仍在观望、还不确定这到底有没有用的人，仍困在 2025 年初那个“机械鹦鹉”的梗里，他们很快就会被即将铺天盖地涌来的证据淹没。the output and the acceleration and the quality and then shipping it, and I think that's what's gonna change the entire conversation quite quickly. The few laggards who are still on the fence about whether this is actually useful, who are still trapped in a meme from early '25 about mechanical parrots, they're simply going to be overwhelmed by the evidence that's about to flood over them.

所以我希望能看到像 Omarchy 这样的项目，看到好几个真正体现“代理优先”的项目。它就要来了，这一切都会到来。在我刚才提到的那些看似无关紧要的领域，比如视频编辑，以及 Typora 这类应用。没错。So I hope to see, projects like Omarchy, several of them that, like, really show agent first. It's coming. All of it is coming. In the spaces, in the silly spaces that I already mentioned, like video editing, all these kinds of apps that are like Typora Yes.

这类东西都会出现，我已经看到了一些早期迹象。Omarchy 的一项非常棒的功能是，它拥有一个强大得多的插件系统，让你可以通过创建自己的插件来扩展操作系统，甚至从用户界面、面板到各项功能都能重新打造；这些插件可以基于我们预装的工具克隆出来。比如说，你想换一个日历。Omarchy 自带日历，点击小小的时钟图标，就会弹出日历，但它不支持 iCal，比如说，也不会读取你的日程安排。this kind of stuff. It's gonna come, and I've already seen the early inklings of this. One of the really neat features about Omarchy is that it has a far more robust plugin system that allows you to extend your operating system and rewrite it really in terms of its user interface and its panel and its features by creating your own plugins that can be cloned off of tools we ship in the box. For example, say you want a different calendar. Omarchy ships with a calendar. You click the little clock. It pops up a calendar, and it doesn't have iCal support, for example. It doesn't consume your appointments.

那东西已经有大约 17 种实现了，而在短短三天内，Omarchy 插件市场上就有了 330 个插件。我从未见过我参与过的任何项目能有这样的增长。我从未见过如此广泛的参与。我也从未见过这么多人能如此迅速地创造出对自己有意义、同时也能供他人使用的软件。这一切都源于 Omarchy 附带了一套技能，能告诉你带来的任何智能体如何为操作系统创建扩展，从而让你得以一窥真正可塑性的愿景。There's about 17 implementations of that already, and in three days, we had 330 plugins on the Omarchy plugin marketplace. I have never seen growth like that with any project I've ever been involved in. I've never seen participation that broadly. I've never seen that many people be able to create software that's meaningful for them Also be usable for others so quickly. All of it is driven by the fact that Omarchy ships a set of skills that tells any agent you bring to it how to create extensions to the operating system, and therefore affording you the vision of the true malleable

我刚才正想说“智能体式”。我讨厌这个他妈的词。部分原因是，首先，它现在已经成了营销圈的烂俗黑话。简直什么东西都往上贴。我真希望能有个别的词，就表示 AI 在干活。“氛围编程”听着也不对劲。I was about to say agentic. I hate that fucking word. And the reason in part I hate that word is, first of all, it's become marketing slob speak-at this point. Like, it's just slapped onto everything. I wish we had a different word that just meant AI doing stuff. Vibe coding feels wrong, too.

确实如此，因为在我看来，氛围编程听起来和 2000 年代初的脚本小子一模一样。他们套用刚从网上下载来的 PHP 脚本，却完全不懂其中的东西。而且，我是说，从某种意义上讲，这确实是真的：很多氛围编程项目都是这样，包括我自己用氛围编程做的项目。正如我刚才提到的，我就有好几个。It does, because vibe coding to me smells exactly like script kiddies did in the early 2000s. People applying PHP scripts they just downloaded offline they don't understand anything of. And while, I mean, that's true in the sense that much of the vibe coding, including my own vibe coded projects, and as I just mentioned, I have several.

我用 C++ 写过东西，也用 Rust 写过东西。Rust，我简直恨透了 Rust。对我来说，只要得看 Rust 代码，就像有人往我眼睛里泼酸一样。等等，等等，等等，等等。你为什么，你为什么讨厌 Rust？在我看来，它是过去大概 40 年里发明出来的最丑陋的编程语言。I've written things in C++. I've written things in Rust. Rust. I hate Rust with a passion. Rust to me is like pouring acid in my eyes when I have to look at the code. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why do, why do you hate Rust? It is, in my opinion, the ugliest programming language-that has been invented-in probably the last 40 years.

所以它和 Rails、Ruby 正好相反。完全相反。不过你写过它。我用 Rust 写过应用程序，因为 Rust 的输出确实令人惊叹。它的内存安全、作为系统语言的特性，以及极高的效率等等，都令人难以置信。所以对我来说，Rust 既可以是人类有史以来发明的最令人厌恶的编程语言，也可以是一个出色的智能体工程平台。So it's the opposite of Rails and Ruby. It's the opposite. But You've written itI've written applications in Rust because the output of Rust is actually amazing. The memory safety, the fact that it's a system language, the fact that it's highly efficient and so forth is incredible. So Rust, to me, can both be the most repugnant programming language ever devised for human consumption and a wonderful platform for agentic engineering.

这两种事实在我看来完全可以并存。你觉得有没有一天，我们可以直接把智能体工程称作编程？我们能不能重新定义编程的含义？毕竟，几个月后到底还有谁会用老派的方式编程呢？These two truths can coexist easily in my head. Do you think that there can be a point at which we can just call agentic engineering programming? Can we just change what programming means? 'Cause who's actually going to be programming the old-school way in a few months?

我认为我们不该重复使用这个术语，因为在我看来，编程意味着要理解某些基本要素：循环、条件和变量。编程语言中的所有构造才构成了编程本身，而不是程序的创建。因为你可以说，在智能体出现之前的时代，你们的 CEO 也在编程。他雇了一群程序员，告诉他们该做什么，最后产出的软件就可以拿去卖。I don't think we should reuse the term because for me, programming implies an understanding of certain primitives, loops, conditions, variables. All the constructs of programming languages are what constitutes programming itself, not the creation of programs. Because you could say in the pre-agentic era, well, your CEO is programming. He's hiring a bunch of programmers, he's telling them what to do, and out comes software that he can sell.

嗯，我觉得大多数人不会把那位 CEO 称作程序员，我也觉得我们不该把氛围编程者称作程序员。至于氛围编程，如果我们在这里给它下定义，那就是你让一个智能体替你开发软件，而你不去看它的实现。在我看来，这就是氛围编程与编程（或者说，智能体加速开发）的区别。Eh, I don't think most people would call that CEO a programmer, and I don't think we should call the vibe coder a programmer either. And vibe coding, if we define it here, is you tell an agent to build software for you. You do not look at the implementation. That, to me, is what separates vibe coding from programming or, let's say, agent-accelerated development.

不过，我稍微提出一点不同看法：你不觉得，程序员——老派程序员——来做智能体工程，和非程序员来做智能体工程，是两回事吗？我的意思是，如果你懂什么是 for 循环，懂什么是函数式编程，也了解一些软件工程的基本原则，那么你用自然语言来做智能体工程的方式就会有所不同，也会更有条理；而且，你实际能构建的东西，无论规模还是种类，都比氛围编程者多得多。But don't you think, so to push back a little bit, don't you think a programmer, old-school programmer, you, doing agentic engineering is a different kind of agentic engineering than a non-programmer doing agentic engineering? What I mean is, if you know what a for loop is, if you know what function programming is, if you know some of the basic good principles of software engineering, the way you do natural language-based agentic engineering will be different and more systematic, and this, the scale and the variety of things you can actually build is much bigger than a vibe coder.

我再稍微把支持方的论点往下延伸一点，只是为了展开论证。对吧？我其实觉得，有一段时间，懂这么多编程知识反而成了我的劣势，因为我会按照自己指定的方式指示代理做事，而它们也确实很擅长照做。在最初的“智能体时刻”——先别叫它一个时代吧，那只是持续了三个月的一段时期——在那个最初的智能体时刻里，这种做法确实感觉效率很高。告诉代理该怎么做，而且是按照我自己会采用的方式去做，能让我的效率提高不少；为此，我用上了自己作为程序员积累的全部经验。I'm just gonna extend the pro case here a little bit just for the sake of the argument. Right. I actually think for a while it was to my deficit to know as much as I know about programming because I was instructing the agents to do things as I prescribed them to do, and they were very good at that. And in the first agentic moment, let's not call it an era, it was something that lasted three months. Moment. In the first agentic moment, that felt very productive. I could get more productivity out of telling the agents what to do in the way I would've done it, and I used all of my experience as a programmer to do just that.

然后到了下一个时刻，我稍微晚了一点；而下一个时刻让我——也让任何人——能够向智能体描述结果、描述问题，并得到比让程序员规定实现路径更好的解决方案。你看，好吧，我们在这里争论得挺开心的。那么，你是在说，有些问题上，程序员做智能体工程反而不如非程序员吗？Then I was a little late on the next moment, and the next moment allowed me, allowed anyone, to describe outcomes-to describe problems to the agents and get better solutions than if you had a programmer prescribe the path. See, okay, so we're having fun arguing here. Well so are you suggesting that there's problems for which programmers are worse than non-programmers at agentic engineering?

百分之百。我这么说的原因，我们先在这里给它下个定义。我之所以这么说，是因为很多程序员并不是很出色的产品经理。软件开发本身就是产品管理：它应该做什么？为谁服务？应该怎么做？应该是什么样子？我们的优先事项是什么？我们先从什么开始？第一个版本应包含哪些内容？这些技能在所有程序员中并非轻易就能获得，也不是人人都具备同等水平。100%. And the reason I say that, let's define it here. The reason I say that is there's a lot of programmers who are not very good product managers. Software is product management. What should it do? Who should it do it for? How should it do it? How should it look? What are our priorities? What do we start with first? What does version one include? All of those skills are not easily or equally distributed across all programmers.

而在智能体时代，当你让智能体——也就是 AI——来负责实现时，这些就是你需要的技能。恰好我两边都身处其中，这也是我热爱当下这个时刻的原因。我仍然能稍微生活在旧世界里，审视完整的实现，因为有些领域和方面，我觉得这样做仍然有价值；与此同时，我也生活在未来。And in the agentic era where you are letting an agent, an AI, do the implementation, these are the skills you need. And I happen to sit in both camps, and this is why I love this moment. I still get to live a little bit in the old world where I look at the full implementation because there are domains and areas where I feel that still brings value, and then I also live in the future.

正如我所说，创建 Omawrite 时，我一行 C++ 代码都没看过。我还特意提醒自己，要把它当作一次实验。它百分之百是个黑箱。我会把自己当成其他任何用户一样，针对数字打字机应该如何运作提出自己的看法；因此，我觉得这算是一次公平的实验，就像任何其他类型的写作者，都会对软件应该如何开发、应该如何运作有自己的看法一样。正如你提到的，视频剪辑师很清楚自己不喜欢 Adobe Premiere 的哪些做法，也知道它怎样才能做得更好，但却没有能力去改进它——这种情况也可能发生。And as I said, when I created Omawrite, I've not looked at a single line of that C++. I actually made it a point to myself that I was gonna treat it as an experiment. This is 100% a black box. I will treat it as though I was any other user who had opinions about how their digital typewriter should work, and therefore felt like it was a fair experiment as if a writer of any other sort who had opinions about how software should be done and how it should work. As you mentioned, video editors who know exactly where they don't like what Adobe Premiere's doing and how it could be better, but don't have the capacities to improve it-how that could be.

不过，我认为程序员擅长的——优秀程序员尤其擅长的——是系统化设计，比如从系统性、正确性和严谨性的角度思考。没错。The pushback, though, I think what programmers do well, good programmers do well, is systematic design, like think in terms of systems Correctand rigor. Yes.

而且我认为，即便是现在，甚至在未来很长一段时间里，用自然语言来控制智能体系统仍然需要一定程度的严谨性。这种严谨性不必过度结构化，但确实要非常具体地说明系统的目标、如何进行验证，以及要开展哪些安全测试。你会想要做这类事情。不过，反过来说，从长远来看，系统也应该变得更智能。And I think still, and probably for a long time to come, even natural language-based control of agentic systems will require a certain kind of rigor. Not overly structured rigor, but really explain very specifically the goals of the system, how to do the verification, what kind of security testing. You wanna do all those kinds of things. Although then to push back on that, the system willshould be smart longer term.

六个月前我也会说同样的话。是啊，情况已经变了。我想，六个月前这话也同样成立。但从那以后，尤其是最近几周，随着智能体加速推进 Mach-E 的开发，我发现自己往往得谦逊地承认：智能体才是最清楚该怎么做的。I would've said the same thing six months ago. Yeah, so this has changed. And I think the same thing would've been true six months ago. What I have found since, especially even just the last few weeks of the agentically accelerated development of Mach-E, is that more often than not, I have the humility to recognize that the agent knows best.

你完全可以理直气壮地说：“确保它是安全的。”没错。它会更清楚这具体意味着什么。现在你在笑——这世界真疯狂，但这是真的。事实上，天哪，一个很好的类比就是 AGENTS.md/CLAUDE.md 文件。曾经有一阵子，大家都热衷于对它们进行微优化。你会告诉智能体这个、告诉智能体那个，最后就弄出了一份给智能体看的、巨大的指令文件。最近，在一次采访中，参与 Claude Code 开发的 Boris 谈到 Opus 5 时提到，他们为 Opus 5 发布的系统提示词——大概 Fable 也是如此——缩短了 80%。You can legitimately say, "Make sure it's secure." Correct. And it would know more about what that entails. Now, you're laughing What a crazy worldbut it's true. And in fact Oh my Goda good parallel to this is the AGENTS MD/CLAUDE MD files. There was a hot moment where it was all the rage about micro optimizing that. Oh, you tell your agent this-you tell your agent that, and you ended up with this huge file of instructions for your agent. One of the things that Boris, working on Claude Code, shared in an interview recently about Opus 5 was that the system prompt that they ship for Opus 5, and presumably also Fable, shrunk by 80%

因为这个智能体不仅需要的人类指令少得多，实际上还会被那些过度指手画脚的人类拖累。任何遇到过尖头发老板的程序员，都完全知道那是什么滋味。老板走进房间，什么都不懂，却开始告诉你该怎么编程、怎么写代码。你会怎么做？你会闹情绪。如果别人逼你做违背自己判断的事，你写出来的代码就会更烂。because the agent not only needed far less human instruction, it was actually being damaged by overly prescriptive humans. And any programmer who's had a pointy-haired boss knows exactly what that is like. When the boss walks into the room, doesn't know anything, starts telling you how to program, how to code. What do you do? You sulk. You write shittier code if you're mandated to do things that are against your better judgment.

为什么智能体会不一样呢？其实，反过来质疑一下我自己，我确实发现，我目前正在培养的真正技能——我想，沿着这个思路，这大概也是所有人都在努力培养的——就是不要把事情规定得过于细致，而是别妨碍系统运作。当然。Why would an agent not be the same? Actually, to push back against myself, I do find the actual skill I'm currently developing, which I along those lines is probably what everybody's trying to develop, is not to overspecify things, is to get out of the system's way. Of course.

重点是明确到足以提供大致的高层次愿景和指导。更妙的是，你甚至不需要做到这一点。现代软件开发的根本洞见源自敏捷软件开发运动。20世纪90年代末、21世纪初，一群聪明、诚实而勇敢的人聚在一起，说：“过去40到50年里，我们一直尝试的软件开发方式行不通，以后也行不通。我们一直试图提前明确软件应该是什么样子。我们以为，只要问问人们想要什么，把一切都写下来，再用系统思维和严谨的方法来编写一份规格说明书，然后把它交给一群程序员，让他们照着实现，所有人就都会满意。”好吧，你猜怎么着？Is to specify enough to provide a kinda high-level vision and guidance. It's even better because you don't even need that. The fundamental insight of modern software development came from the agile software development movement. In the late '90s, early 2000s, a group of smart, honest, and brave people came together and said, "The way we've been trying to do software development for the last 40 to 50 years has not worked, will not work. We've been trying to specify upfront what software should look like. We thought that we could ask humans what they wanted, write it all down, apply our systems thinking and our rigor to a spec sheet, hand that spec sheet over to a group of programmers who would then implement just that, and everyone would be happy." Well, guess what?

没有人会满意。因为在真正得到想要的东西之前，没人知道自己想要什么。你得先试着用一用，才知道一个程序应该做什么。所以，在智能体时代，你应该抵制一开始就把要求说得过于具体的冲动。尽可能……No one was happy. Because no one knows what they want until they receive it. You don't know what a program should do until you play with it. So in the agentic age, you should resist the temptation to be overly specific upfront. Be as

氛围编程、智能体工程与名称Vibe Coding, Agentic Engineering, and Names

尽可能模糊地提出需求，让某个东西先呈现出来，然后与它互动。打造优秀软件的方式，是先写一点软件，再试着使用它。正是在使用软件的过程中，你才会发现自己真正想要什么，也会发现什么重要、什么不重要。而智能体特别擅长让你在这种体验中摸索前行，逐渐意识到自己想要什么——因为你一开始并不知道自己想要什么。vague as you can to manifest something, then interact with the something. The way you arrive at good software is you write a little bit of software, and then you try to use it. It is in the process of using software that you discover what you really want. It's where you discover what's important and what's not important. And agents are incredible at allowing you to bumble into this experience of realizing what you want because you don't know what you want.

嗯嗯。其实我也做过类似你刚才建议的事情：实现不同的设计，采用完全不同的实现方式，然后给自己做 HTML 页面、PHP 页面，在上面投票选出自己更喜欢的方案之类的。整个过程会不断迭代，感觉特别棒，也很有趣。如果你为自己打造一个漂亮的界面，和智能体系统交互会非常有趣，而且你可以专注于设计，以及设计中最有意思的部分。Mm-hmm. And I've actually done something similar to what you suggested, which is implement different designs and totally different implementations, and then I create HTML pages for myself, PHP pages, where I vote on what I like more and so on. And it does this iterative thing, and it's very nice and fun. The interaction with the agentic system, if you create a nice interface for yourself, it can be super fun, and you're focusing on the design part and the most fun parts of the design part.

没错，这正是人类真正擅长的事。对，品味。差异评估。你给我三个选项，我挑一个。可要是给人类22个选项，他们就会一下子不知所措。这就是选择悖论。但你给他们三个选项，他们很快，几乎一瞬间，就会告诉你自己喜欢哪个。Correct. And this is what humans are really good at. Yeah, taste. Differential evaluation. You give me three options, I pick one of them. Now, humans actually fall off a cliff if you give them 22 options. That's the paradox of choice. But you give them three options, they very quickly within a split second will tell you what they like.

有各种各样的方法，都利用了这样一个事实：人会迅速做出判断，而这些判断其实发生在理性思考之前，对吧？它们来自直觉，然后传到大脑里，大脑再试着为直觉给出的判断找理由。如果你愿意放下其中一些理智层面的预先加工和合理化，只让直觉来引领，那么智能体时代就会让你大开眼界。There are all these ways that exploit the fact that humans will make these snap judgments that are actually pre-intellectual, right? Like, they're coming from the gut, and then they arrive up in the, in the brain, and the brain tries to rationalize why the gut said what it said. And if you're willing to let go of some of that intellectual pre-processing rationalization and simply let your gut drive, the agentic age is a revelation.

所以这个问题问你特别有意思，因为你这么多年来一直以热衷于精雕细琢优美的 Rails/Ruby 代码而闻名，而现在短短几个月内，你就转而不再这么做了。那么，你现在的工作方式是什么样的？我想，你还是在追求那种美感、精雕细琢和匠心，只不过现在是在用不同的媒介创作。So this is a fascinating thing to ask you because you have sort of famously for a long time talked about, like, detailed chiseling of beautiful Rails Ruby code, and now you have switched in a matter of months to not doing that. So, like, what is your current setup look like? 'Cause you're, I assume, are still looking for the beauty, for the chiseling, for the crafting, but you're just crafting in a different medium.

而且是在不同的抽象层次上。当我编写 Ruby 代码时——我们的业务遍布各个方面，有大量 Ruby 代码——即使我让智能体修改这些代码，我仍然会对细节精益求精。但我逐渐意识到，这种精益求精带来的经济回报正在迅速减少。过去 25 年里，我之所以对每一行代码都如此认真，是因为我知道，保持架构连贯且灵活所带来的回报，就是让一支小团队能够快速修改和迭代软件，而且成本不会高得离谱，也不会因为改动某处而引入一堆 bug。这就是你应该编写优美代码背后的经济考量，因为优美的代码更容易理解，也更简单，它——And at different levels of abstraction. When I'm working in Ruby code, and we have a lot of Ruby code because it's in our entire business, and I'm asking agents to make changes to that code, I still sweat the details. What I'm coming to realize is that the economic payoff of that sweat is diminishing rapidly. The reason why I, for 25 years, was sweating every line of code so judiciously was because I knew the payoff of keeping an architecture coherent and malleable was software that could change and evolve quickly with a small team, and not exorbitant cost, and not introducing a bunch of bugs when you change one thing over the other. That was the driving economic argument for why you should write beautiful code, 'cause beautiful code is easier to understand, it is simpler, it

更加易于改造。这一观点的前提是由人类来进行修改。我认为，这一点如今在多大程度上仍然重要，是个尚无定论的问题。现在它确实重要，至少就目前而言，我这么说的原因是 token 仍然稀缺。此时此刻，我们都受到 token 数量的限制。好吧，不是所有人，但凡预算不是无穷无尽的人，都会受到 token 数量的限制。因此，编写一种智能体更容易处理、也更容易演进的系统，就能带来巨大的收益，而且不必重新学习整个上下文。就像人类一样，如果他们能够在不破坏架构的前提下，对代码库进行迭代和修改，那么下一次修改的成本就能和上一次一样低。这就是经典的“泥球”问题：最终你会得到一个泥球般的系统——is more malleable. That was premised on humans doing the modifications. I think it is an open question to which degree this still matters. Now, it does matter, and the reason I say that, at least for the moment, is that tokens are still scarce. At this moment in time, we are all token limited. Well, not all, but anyone who doesn't have endless budgets are token limited. So therefore, there is great payoff to writing systems that agents have an easier time dealing with and evolving without having to relearn the entire context. Just like humans, if they can make iterations and changes to the code base without wrecking the architecture, they can make the next change just as cheaply as the last one. And this is the classic ball of mud where you end up with a system that's a ball of mud-

因为它只是以一种什么都没连起来的方式拼凑在一起，简直一团糟，对吧？我在智能体身上见过这种情况，也在我们自己的代码库里见过：再说一次，第一个 PR 的质量就很一般，然后你再在上面叠加一个 PR，接着往后再加五个，结果就不太好了，对吧？所以这仍然是有回报的，但这种回报是以我们当下的情况为前提的。我现在能够……顺便说一句，这正是 AI 精神错乱真正出现的地方：当你试图推测九个月后会是什么样子时。because it's just put together in a way where nothing is connected and it's just a real mess, right? I've seen that with agents, and I've seen it in our own code bases where, again, the first PR is, like, mediocre of quality, and then if you add another PR on top of that, and then five more down the line, it's not very good, right? So there's still a payoff to that, but that payoff is premised on our current moment. I am now able toAnd this is, by the way, where the AI psychosis really comes in, when you try to extrapolate what nine months from now it's gonna look like.

看看两年后它会是什么样子。不过，作为一次思想实验，我想我用过的第一台电脑是 Commodore 64。 我也是。 酷。它的 CPU 主频是 1 兆赫，内存有 64K。所有为这台机器编写软件的人，都把某些限制内化了。其实，是所有限制。这台机器除了限制之外，什么都没有。 如果把那个程序员放进时光机，送到 2026 年，给他或她一台现代电脑，然后说：“现在给我写个软件。”他们会有一阵子不知所措，因为他们所有的技巧和经验法则都完全不适用了。或者说，也不是不适用，因为高效的软件What two years from now it's gonna look like. But as an intellectual experiment, I think the first computer I used was a Commodore 64. Me too. Cool. It had one megahertz CPU and 64K of memory. Everyone who wrote software for that machine internalized certain constraints. Well, all the constraints. That machine was nothing but constraints. If you put that programmer in a time machine and teleported him or her to 2026 and gave them a modern computer today and said, "Now write me a piece of software," they'd be lost for a little bit because all their techniques and all their heuristics would simply be wrong. Or not wrong, because efficient software

仍然很美。他们所能创造的价值会显得过时。为了让一台一兆赫的电脑运行一款电子游戏，你必须进行的优化，和今天所需要做的优化完全不同。想想当年那个在 Commodore 上编程的人。回想一下那一切，比如编程当时是什么感觉、意味着什么——资源极其有限，一切都慢得不得了。is still beautiful. They would be out of date with the value that they could create. The amount of optimization you have to apply for a one megahertz computer to produce a video game is just very different from what you have to apply today. Just imagine that guy that was programming back then on a Commodore. Just re remember all those, like what programming felt like and what it meant, highly constrained resources-how slow everything is.

在很多方面都很美。很美。这是在凿刻。但想想那个人现在过来的情景。其实这也挺浪漫的。我们也来想象一下。比如说，每当我们感叹现代汽车文化时，不是吗？然后我们就会想：“哦，以前大家都坐马车之类的，不是更好吗？”不，不是。Beautiful in many ways. Beautiful. It's chiseling. But It-imagine that person coming now. It's romantic too, though. Let's also imagine that. This is one of the things, whenever we bemoan modern car culture, for example, right? And then we think like, "Oh, wasn't it better when we all had the horse-drawn carriages and so on?" No, it wasn't.

你知道以前我们用马代步时纽约是什么味道吗？那简直就是个露天污水沟。它们到处拉屎。是啊，不过你玩过《荒野大镖客》吗？你知道那些牛仔有多酷吗？那才是——骑在马上的感觉？Do you know what New York smelled like when we used horses for transportation? It was an open sewer. They just shat everywhere. Yeah, but have you played Red Dead Redemption? You know how cool those cowboys were That is the way-on the horse?

去体验怀旧的过去，那时你无法获得所有那些毛茸茸的冲动和感官体验。所以基本上，编程——老派的手工编程——有点像我们浪漫化并拍成电影的牛仔文化。对手写代码的浪漫化已经开始了。to experience the nostalgic past, when you don't get the all the furry impulses and senses. So basically programming, old school programming by hand is kinda like the cowboy culture that we romanticize and make movies about. It's already happening, the romanticization of handwritten code.

我也赶上了那段时光，因为那是一个非常浪漫的时代。我很庆幸自己有幸经历了整整20年，那时手写代码还具有经济价值。那真是段美好的时光。那时，手写的优美代码也很有价值。没错。因为如今手写的优美代码和过去一样依然存在。有人还在自愿为 Commodore 64、Mega Drive 2 或其他复古游戏机开发新游戏。事实上，我最近最喜欢的电子游戏之一是 ModRetro 的作品。你知道帕尔默·拉奇的副业吗？他在复刻老式游戏机。所以他复刻了 Game Boy。And I have some of it because it was a very romantic era. I'm grateful to have been alive for 20 years of economically valuable handwritten code. That was a, that was a good time. Where handwritten beautiful code was also valuable. Correct. Because handwritten beautiful code exists as much today as it did yesterday. There are people who willfully write new video games for the Commodore 64, or for the second Mega Drive, or for other vintage consoles. In fact, one of my favorite video games of late is ModRetro's. Do you know Palmer Luckey's-side geschäft, which is recreating old consoles. So he's recreated the Game Boy.

不错，太棒了。去搜搜看。真的很酷。不过，比他复刻了这款硬件、保留了原版那种厚重感，同时又用现代屏幕等配置让它焕然一新更酷的是，他们现在连任天堂 64 也推出了。简直不可思议。Nice. It's amazing. Look it up. It's really cool. But what's even cooler than the fact that he recreated this hardware and the original chunkiness, but brought it up to date with sort of modern screens and so on, now they just put out the Nintendo 64 too. Incredible.

太酷了。对细节、输入延迟以及其他方方面面的关注都令人惊叹。不过还有一个也特别酷——那个，我得指给你看。就是那边那个，把鼠标悬停在上面，这样你就能看到我说的是什么。那就是 Chromatic-Tetris 的重新实现。哇。Super cool. Wild attention to detail, input lag, and all the other things. But what's also very cool, that one, I have to wave. That one right there, and hover over it, 'cause then you get to see what I'm talking about. That is the Chromatic-Tetris re-implementation. Wow.

我在初代 Game Boy 上玩过很多俄罗斯方块。这大概是我有史以来最喜欢的三款游戏之一。他们只改了一处：按上方向键，方块就会瞬间落到底。这样一来，游戏速度就快了大约 400%。I played a lot of Tetris on the original Game Boy. Probably one of my top three favorite games of all time. And they rewrote it with one change. If you hit up, the brick slams. And that speeds up the game by about 400%.

工艺、品味与编程的意义Craft, Taste, and the Meaning of Programming

这是一款很棒的游戏，而且还是一款全新的 Game Boy 游戏。我想 Game Boy 是在 1989 年或 1988 年问世的。这是一台非常古老的机器。直到今天还有人编写全新的老游戏，这件事真是太棒了。他们这么做的部分原因——比如这里，他们是因为想要《俄罗斯方块》——但也有人纯粹是热爱这些限制，热爱编写这类游戏所承载的浪漫想象。就像现在仍有人骑马四处走动，不是为了快速抵达目的地，而是因为他们喜欢这种交通方式：身下有一个真实的生物，推动着你向前。It is an incredible game, and it's a new Game Boy game. I think the Game Boy came out in '89 or '88. It's a very old machine. The fact that there's still people writing new old games is awesome, and the reason they do it in part, now here they're doing it because they want Tetris, but there are people who do it just for the love of the constraints, for the love of the romantic notion of writing that. Just like there are people still riding around on horses, not to get places fast, but because they like the mode of transportation where it's a literal biological being below you propelling you forward.

而且我们也应该说，那些优美的代码是很棒的训练数据。所以从某种意义上说，我们几十年来创造的美好确实还在延续。是我们孕育了这一刻。这是多么大的荣幸啊。我对此感受尤其深，因为我写过的代码几乎全都是公开代码。我职业生涯的大部分时间都在致力于编写开源代码，因此，其中一些代码、那些优美的代码行，也进入了训练集。事实上，我听说有人写 Ruby 代码时会这么做：他们会对智能体说：“像 DHH 那样写。”And also, we should say that that beautiful code is great training data. So in some sense, the beauty that we've built over a few decades Yescontinues. We gave birth to this moment. What a privilege, and I feel that very personally because IAlmost all of the code I've ever written is public code. The vast majority of my career has been dedicated to writing open source code, and therefore, some of that code, some of those beautiful lines are in the training set. And in fact, I've heard people do this when they write Ruby code. They ask the agent, "Write it like DHH would."

他们对结果很满意，这确实让我心里有点暖意，因为我以微不足道的一点点小贡献，帮助促成了这一刻。而其他所有曾贡献过开源代码或任何代码的人——智能体在整个编程作为一门学科存在的历史中都曾接触过这些代码——如今也都成了这些新晋智能体霸主的一部分。And they're pleased with the result, and that does warm my heart a little bit, that I helped give birth to this moment in my tiny little small part. And anyone else who contributed open source code or any code at all that the agents have had access to over the last, well, entire time programming has been around as a discipline, is now part of these new agent overlords.

所以，你不会有一点难过吗？毕竟，亲手写出漂亮代码这件事，如今越来越没用了。我会不会难过——如果我明天就得找工作，我很可能没法靠运用自己的技能，拿到报酬去手写这些代码？不会。So you don't have a little bit of sadness that writing beautiful code by hand is now less and less useful? Am I sad that if I had to get a job tomorrow, it's unlikely that I could apply my skills in such a way that I would be paid to write these manual lines of code? No.

我干了25年。就是说，我想看看这里有什么新东西，尤其是如果我们都要长生不老的话——我希望不会。也许我们之后会谈到这个。不过，我已经干过那件事了，够了，就这样。我对那段经历并没有比对自己不用再拿着锄头下地干活、或站在流水线上工作这件事更怀念。I did it for 25 years. Like, I wanna see something new here, especially if we're all gonna live forever, which I hope we don't. Maybe we'll get to that. But, like, I've done that. That's enough. That's fine. I don't feel any more nostalgic about that than I do about the fact that I don't have to spend my time in the field with a hoe or at the assembly line.

等等，先等一下。你是世界上最擅长编写精雕细琢、优美代码的程序员之一，也是懂得欣赏美、品味极佳的人。没错。这一点已经被取代了。Well, hold on a second. You are one of the best programmers in the world at writing handcrafted beautiful code, appreciators of beauty with great taste. Correct. That has been replaced.

我谦虚地说。是啊。那已经被替代了。就像，你现在……你进化得很快，而且你能够……你很出色的一项品质，就是能够改变主意并迅速进化。但就像，你不得不杀死另一个人。I say humbly. Yeah. That has been replaced. Like, you had nowYou're just fast evolving, and you're able toOne of your really great qualities is you're able to change your mind and evolve very quickly. But, like, you had to kill that other person.

我感激每一个让我走到此时此刻的瞬间，因此我也努力尝试过——也许这确实需要一些练习，这一点我承认。也许我并非一直如此，但斯多葛哲学中的 amor fati，也就是热爱自己的命运，是一种极其令人解脱的生活方式。你也可以批评这一点，说：“嗯，那是特权者才有的观点。”I am grateful for every moment that brought me to where I am right now, and therefore, I have also tried, and maybe this did take some practice. I will concede that. Maybe I wasn't always like this, but stoic philosophy, amor fati, loving your fate, is an incredibly liberating way to live. And you could attack that and say, "Well, that's a point of privilege."

确实，不过在我还没有这些——姑且称之为“特权”——的时候，我也持有同样的立场。所以我觉得，有一种生活和与世界相处的方式：接受那些你能改变的事，也接受那些你无法改变的事，并爱上这一切。True, but also I had the same directional point when I didn't have all this, quote unquote, "privilege." So I think there's a way to live and interact with the world where you accept the things you can change and the things you cannot change and fall in love with all of it.

请爱上这样一个事实：与去年相比，如今的世界在科技行业里已经向前跨越了二十年。那么，我们能不能聊聊程序员经历同样转变时普遍感受到的焦虑？他们或许上过大学，主修计算机科学，梦想着成为程序员、打造各种产品、拿高薪；如今一切都在变化，他们内心深处满是焦虑，忍不住想：“我的人生该怎么办？”你能理解这种感受吗？他们到底该怎么办？Fall in love with the fact that the world today has jumped two decades forward into technology industry from where it was last year. So can we talk about the general anxiety that programmers feel, going through the same transformation? They've maybe gone to university majored in computer science, dreamed of being programmers and building stuff, high salary, and now everything's changing, and there's deep anxiety about, "What do I do whenwith my life?" Can you empathize with that, and what the hell are they supposed to do?

非常重要。因为虽然我有这种倾向，但我很清楚，并不是每个人都有这种倾向；不是所有人都抱持着这样的立场和对未来的乐观态度。不过我确实想把事情稍微区分开来。如果你热爱编程的唯一原因，是机械地把正确的逻辑结构拼凑起来，做出别人让你做的东西，那么你会很难适应新的现实。因为这种机械性的过程正受到威胁。Hugely. Because just because I have this disposition, I'm keenly aware that that's not evenly distributed, that not everyone sits with this position and this optimism for the future. But I do think I wanna separate things a little bit. I think you're gonna have a hard time coping with the new reality if the only thing you loved about programming was the mechanical bits of putting the right logical constructs together to produce something other people told you to produce. Because that mechanical process is under threat.

如果你确实像刚才提到的那样，热衷于创造事物，我认为你完全没有受到威胁。事实上，我认为有充分的理由相信，我们需要的创造者远比现在多得多。看看就业数据吧，情况并不明朗，完全说不准会发生什么。有些数据甚至显示，职位空缺在增加，因为 AI 的出现大幅降低了软件的价格，人们因此想要更多软件。这就是经典的杰文斯悖论：某样东西的价格下降时，对它的需求就会增加。ATM 也是一个例子。ATM 刚出现时，很多银行柜员都非常担心自己的工作，因为突然有了一台可以取钱的机器。If you are, as you just mentioned, excited about building things, I don't think you're under threat at all. In fact, I think there's a great argument for us needing far more builders than what we have now, and if you look at the employment stats, it's fuzzy. It's not clear what's gonna happen at all. Some stats actually show an increase in openings because the advent of AI is so dramatically lowering the price of programs that people want a lot more programs. This is the classic, the Jevons paradox, that says when the price of something goes down, there's gonna be more demand for it. And this is the example of the ATMs too. When the ATM originally came, a lot of bank tellers were very afraid for their job because suddenly there was a machine that could dispense money from

人们的账户。嗯，ATM所做的是降低了开设分行的成本，于是银行突然能够负担得起开设更多分行，结果银行柜员的数量反而比以前更多了。当然，这一切并非板上钉钉。有时，事情确实会发生变化。直到19世纪末，绝大多数人都还在田间劳作；随后，机械化收割工具突然出现，我们不再需要人们拿着锄头、赶着牛去干活，因为机械工具可以替我们完成这些工作。people's account. Well, what the ATMs did was lower the price of a branch, and suddenly banks could afford to open a lot more branches, and we ended up with more bank tellers than we did before. Now, none of this is guaranteed. There are also moments where things do change. The vast majority of people worked in the fields up until the late 1800s, and then suddenly we got mechanized harvesting tools, and we did not need human labor with a hoe and an ox out there. We had mechanical tools to do that for us.

在那个时候，是否有人觉得自己的工作和生计受到了威胁？是的。这种威胁感是否合理？是的。英格兰捣毁织布机的卢德派也面临着同样的情况。我觉得，这或许比在田地里劳作的人更适合作为类比，因为这些人其实是技艺娴熟的专业人士，他们喜欢自己的工作，工作条件也相当不错，而不是整天在烈日下辛苦劳作。In that moment, are there people who were threatened that their job and their livelihood was at stake? Yes. Was that a reasonable thing to feel threatened about? Yes. The Luddites smashing the weaving machines-in England had the same thing. And I think maybe that's the better parallel than people working the fields because these were actually highly skilled professionals doing a job that they liked on rather favorable conditions, not slaving outside in the sun all day.

但在我们如今生活的社会里，我们还希望衣服仍然是一种如此稀缺的资源吗？比如说，这件 T 恤要是卖 400 美元呢？我是说，好吧，那我就有两件。嗯，我的衣橱看起来大概就像只有两件衣服。不过我认为，人类整体的进步取决于生产力的提升。那什么是生产力的提升呢？这一点非常重要，因为抽象地说，我觉得每个人都会说：“好耶，生产力提升了。这是好事。”But where we live now, would we still like for clothing to be this heavily constrained resource? Like, what if this T-shirt was $400? I mean, okay, then I'd have two. Well, my wardrobe probably looks like I have two. But I think the general progress of mankind depends on productivity improvements. And what are productivity improvements? This is very important because in the abstract, I think everyone says, "Yay, productivity. That's good."

你以为这一切都只是凭感觉？不是。生产力意味着用更少的人完成同样多的工作，或者完成同一项工作。现在，你想要完成的工作量可能会增加，因此你会雇更多人，但也可能不会。有些领域里，公司可能只需要完成一组固定任务，而突然之间，他们用十分之一的人手就能完成这些任务。顺便说一句，对当下被裁掉的个人来说，这可能是悲剧，也很难熬。但对整个经济来说，这也很了不起。突然之间，你释放出了这些资源，让他们可以去做更有生产力的事情。整个经济就是这样不断演进、改善，我们也因此实现增长，而增长是好事。我认为这是另一件需要……What did you think, this was all just vibes? No. Productivity means fewer people to do the same number or the same job. Now, the amount of job you want done may increase, and therefore you get more people, but it also may not. There may be pockets where a company just needs a certain set of fixed tasks done, and suddenly they can do them with a 10th the number of people. This, by the way, couldis tragic and difficult in the moment for the individual being laid off. It's also amazing for the economy at large. Suddenly you've freed up these resources who can now go do more productive things. This is how the whole economy evolves and improves and how we get growth, and growth is good. I think this is the other thing to make a

有力地捍卫了这样一种观点：总体而言，增长是件好事。我们不想把时钟拨回到1920年或1950年。我们应该为发现了能让我们大幅提升能力的新技术而感到兴奋。虽然人工智能可能接手的一些任务，曾是人们乐于从事的工作，如今却不再具有经济可行性，但其中很多任务本来就只是苦差事。我的编程工作确实如此。有些编程时刻让我觉得妙不可言。正是这些时刻让我进入了我们上次谈到的心流状态，那种感觉令人欣喜若狂。一年下来，这样的时刻能有多少次？如果你拿普通的……strong defense for, that growth in general is a good thing. We do not want to wind the clock back to 1920 or 1950. We should be excited about the fact that we've discovered new technology that allows us to do vastly more. And while some of the tasks that may be taken over by AI were tasks that humans were excited to do, and they're just no longer economically viable, a lot of the tasks were just drudgery. This is certainly true of my programming. There were moments of programming I thought were amazing. These were the moments that produced that state of flow we talked about last time, and they were ecstatic. How often did they happen out of the course of a year? If you took your average

程序员，在工作中的 2,000 小时里，那个人有多少时间处于心流状态？100 小时？200 小时？25 小时？我觉得这些答案对不同的人来说都可能成立。把那些苦差事交给机器去做，这就是文明史。programmer, how much time out of 2,000 hours at the job did that person spend in a flow state? 100? 200? 25? I think all those answers could be plausible for someone. And taking that drudgery, handing it over to machines, that is the history of civilization.

是啊，我的意思是，那些花在调试上的时间。编程中有太多太多痛苦的时光。而现在它们都消失了。就……我的意思是，大多数时候，编程只是乐趣。很多领域里的很多痛苦都消失了，其余的也可能很快就会消失。所以，这也是浪漫主义情怀的一部分，因为当下的痛苦很难熬。它很难受，很烦人。但从后视镜里回望痛苦，它就成了成就、骄傲、学习、进步——所有这些，对吧？所以，我们把这一切都视为人类体验的一部分，尽管我们讨厌……Yeah, I mean, the hours spent debugging. So programming has so many painful, painful hours in it. And now they're gone. For theI mean, for the most part, it's just fun. A lot of it is gone in a lot of domains, and the rest of it may be gone very soon. So that's where some of the romanticism also comes inbecause pain in the moment is difficult. It's hard. It's annoying. Pain in the rear view mirror is accomplishment, proud, learning, steps forward, all the things, right? So we encompass all of this as part of the human experience, that we hate

工作、职业与自动化Work, Jobs, and Automation

当下会很痛苦，但等五分钟过去，我们就会珍惜这段经历，而且不再记得其中的艰难，只记得取得的进步。所以，当然，从社会层面、宏观经济层面来看，增长令人振奋。但对个人而言，可能会有很多焦虑，甚至很多苦难。说到建议，如果你现在是一位年轻的 DHH，或者是一位年轻的开发者、程序员，你会建议他们怎么做？pain in the moment, but we cherish it when it's five minutes past and we don't remember the hardship. We just remember the progress. So certainly at the societal level, at the macroeconomic level, growth is exciting. But the individual level, there's going to be a lot of anxiety potentially a lot of suffering. So by way of advice, if you're like a young DHH or young developer programmer now, what would you advise they do?

别试图预判任何事情。那样你真的会疯掉。因为即便是业内最聪明的人，也无法预判从现在起经过两次模型迭代后会是什么样子。这完全是在浪费时间，而且你会为了推断两年后会是什么样子而患上 AI 精神病。专注于当下，而当下正是投身计算机领域最不可思议的时代。Don't try to anticipate anything. You will literally go crazy. Because even the smartest brains in the business cannot anticipate what two model hops from here is going to look like. It's an absolute waste of time, and you will develop an AI psychosis trying to deduce what two years from now is gonna look like. Focus on right now, and right now is the most incredible time to be into computers.

只要你全身心投入，就能让它们做出最了不起的事情。你哪怕只是短暂地强迫自己去了解一下最前沿的发展，我也敢打赌，你一定会对各种可能性感到兴奋。那么，你会建议大家公开构建吗？我觉得公开构建其实是可选的。我觉得这么做挺好的，因为你能成为社区的一员，而且开源领域里有一种同袍情谊。不，不只是有一点同袍情谊。这里有着极其深厚的同袍情谊。开源是社区归属感和同袍情谊的绝佳来源，也能很好地缓解一些个人的存在主义焦虑。身处其他人中间，你会受到一些积极的思想病毒感染，You can make them do the most amazing things if you lean in. If you maybe for a hot moment force yourself to learn where the state of the art is, I double dog dare you not to get excited about what's possible. And would you recommend building publicly? I think it's optional actually to build publicly. I think it's nice to do because then you get to be part of a community, and there's some camaraderie in open source. Not some camaraderie. There's an enormous amount of camaraderie. Open source is an incredible source of community and camaraderie, and it's also a great way to stem some of that personal existential dread. If you're amongst other humans, you can get infected with good forms of mind viruses,

令人振奋的思想病毒——那些告诉你一切都会好起来、未来一片光明，只要我们一起打造一堆东西，就能做到我们任何人都从未梦想过能做到的事情的思想病毒。我刚刚还在和 Ryan Hughes 聊天，他几乎从第一天起就是我在 Omarchy 上的主要搭档。昨天我们还真的聊到，当初我们一起踏上这段旅程时，抱负其实很朴素。我们当时就想：“能不能让这个发行版别在凌晨三点因为某个刚推送出来、而且不受我们控制的 Arch 软件包崩溃？那就太棒了。那样就已经很不错了。”而现在，我们靠回椅背，开始琢磨：“我们要怎样才能统治世界？”exciting forms of mind viruses, the ones that tell you that it's all gonna be okay, and the future looks bright, and if we build a bunch of things together, we can do things none of us ever dreamed we could do. I was just talking to Ryan Hughes, who's been my main partner on Omarchy almost since day one, and we were literally talking about yesterday how when We started on this journey together. Our ambitions were very modest. We're just like, "Can we get this distro to not crash at 3:00 AM because of an Arch package that just got pushed out outside of our control? That would be amazing. Then it'd be great." Now we're leaning back and thinking, "How can we take over the world?

“我们怎样才能让 Omarchy 登上火星？我们怎样才能实现我们曾梦想过的一切？”这种雄心的膨胀，部分是因为智能体让事情变得更好了，但更重要的是，我们身边聚集了一群同样对这段旅程充满热情的人。如果你只是一个人待在自己那间与世隔绝的小洞穴里，忧心未来，那你确实很容易有点疯掉。How can we make Omarchy go to Mars? How can we do everything we've ever dreamed of?" And that level of ambition inflation is partly because things have gotten better with agents, but hugely also because we've surrounded ourselves with others excited about the same journey. And if you're just sitting in your little isolated cave worrying about the future, yeah, you're gonna go a little nuts.

我觉得，如果说我们在新冠疫情期间学到了什么，那就是人们独自待在自己的小洞穴里，担心接下来会发生什么，真的会把自己逼疯。这跟抑郁症没什么区别，就是没完没了地反刍那些自己无法掌控的事情。抱歉我借用了几句黄仁勋的说法，但这就是失败者的论调。I think if we learned anything during COVID is that people will go nuts sitting in their little cave inside by themselves worrying about what's gonna happen. That is indistinguishable from depression, ruminating endlessly about things you can't control. I'm sorry to channel some Jensen Huang here, but that's just loser talk.

你不必做个失败者。你可以选择积极投入并取得成功。而成功的定义非常宽泛：学得更多、赚得更多、贡献更多、参与得更多。归根结底，你有什么选择？你别无选择，伙计。未来无论你喜不喜欢都会到来，所以你不妨选择对它充满期待。You don't have to be a loser. You can choose to lean in and-win. And win is very broadly defined as learning more, making more, contributing more, being part of more. And at the end of the day, what are your choices? You don't have a choice, mate. The future's coming whether you like it or not, so you might as well choose to be excited about it.

但我的意思是，我们应该强调，借助 AI 几乎无法做规划。我的意思是，我们大多数人都会稍微规划一下自己的生活。年轻时，你会有希望和梦想。你之所以去上大学，是有原因的。这背后有一个计划。我同意这一点。But I mean, we should emphasize the fact that planning is nearly impossible with AI. I mean, most of us plan our life a little bit. When we're younger, you have, like, hopes and dreams. There's a reason you go to college. There's a plan underlying that. I agree with that.

不过这点我承认。这事儿确实有点……不一样。简直疯了，根本没法真正做计划。因为你真的不知道，六个月后还会不会有 Claude Code、Codex 和 Cursor。也许到时候你会通过 WhatsApp 交谈。也许会变成完全开放调用的形式。也许就全是语音了。But there I'll concede that. it is kinda This is different. nuts that it's impossible to really plan. Because, like, you really don't know, if there will even be a Claude Code, a Codex, and Cursor six months from now. Maybe it'll be you'll be talking to WhatsApp. Maybe it'll be all open call type. Maybe it'll just all be voice.

也许 Omarchy 会接管整个世界，而届时一切都会通过语音完成。也许操作系统将不复存在。你只会……会有一个发光的球体，你只要跟它说话就行，因为如果自然语言足以完成生活中的所有任务，那生活的意义又是什么？比如说，人生中有哪些主要任务是你需要完成的？如果你只要用语音就能做到这一切，它还会为你编写所有程序，一切都实现了系统化，那又还需要什么工作呢？也许重点会转向服务业。也许根本不会再有程序员，也不会有智能体工程师。所以，是的，你建议专注于当下，这很明智；但这并不意味着一切就只是疯狂的过山车之旅，因为我们不知道今年十二月或明年一月会是什么样子。Maybe Omarchy will take over the world and it'll be voice. Maybe there won't be operating systems anymore. You'll justThere'll be this glowing orb that just you just talk to because if natural language is enough to accomplish all tasks in life, like, what is life about? Like, what are the major tasks you need to accomplish in life? If you can just do that with voice, and it writes all the programs for you, and all is systematized, and what, what are the jobs needed then? Maybe it's more about the service industry. Maybe there won't be programmers, like agentic engineers at all. And so yes, your advice is wise to focus on the moment, but that doesn't mean that it's just a crazy rollercoaster ride, 'cause we don't know what this December or what this January will look like.

我们不知道，所以应该选择相信事情最终会有好结果。这是我对抗焦虑能给出的最好建议：很大程度上，你可以选择自己要往哪个方向倾斜。你想倾向于 PDoom 吗？不管你是否倾向于它，PDoom 都会发生。We don't know, and therefore, we should choose to have faith that it's gonna pan out. That is my best advice towards fighting anxiety, is that you have a choice, to a large degree, of how to lean. Do you wanna lean into PDoom? PDoom is gonna happen whether you lean into it or not.

你没有控制权。但除此之外，也有实际的每日安排：你花多少时间学习，花多少时间做建设，又花多少时间进行多元化。比如，我最近特意游历了中国的乡村，因为你是在和中国乡村地区的人交谈——其实任何地方的乡村都一样，那里的时间流逝得慢得多，也没人讨论智能体工程。然后，呃，我一开始是去爬中国的长城。You don't have control. But there's also actual daily schedule of how much learning are you doing, how much building are you doing, how much uh, diversification you're doing. And for example, I traveled across rural China recently, and I did it quite deliberately because you're talking to people in China, in, in rural anywhere, where time moves much slower, where there's no discussions about agentic engineering. And the ti and I started by going on the, on the Great Wall of China.

那是永恒的，跨越了几个世纪。你知道，当时有一种害怕错过的紧张感，好像我可能错过了什么。但后来我非常刻意地想去寻找人类存在中的永恒性，真正体会到：好吧，纵观人类历史，一切似乎总是在变化，但生命中什么才重要，这些普遍真理依然成立。我只是想确保自己始终与这些相连。That's timeless. That spans centuries. And, you know, there was, like, this kind of tension of FOMO, like maybe I'm missing out on something. But then I very deliberately wanted to find the timelessness of human existence, really plug into the fact that, okay, it always feels like everything's changing uh, throughout human history but, you know, the universals are still true, of what matters in life. And I just wanted to make su keep connected to that.

你不会错过任何东西。这正是这场转变初期最让我恼火的部分。大家都特别激动，好像你要是没跟上——现在是循环了。哦，不，不，我们不搞循环了。现在是图了。哦，不，不，我们也不搞这个了。现在是，它利用这个，对吧？他们一直在不断探索前沿，这从某种意义上来说确实令人兴奋。这就是一个新领域开启时会发生的事。就像出现了一扇新的传送门，所有东西都从里面涌了出来。这很令人兴奋。但这也意味着，假如我过去一年都在背包旅行，没碰过电脑，也没见证这一波智能体浪潮，然后昨天才回来，你知道吗？我只需要两周就能跟上。You're not gonna miss anything. This is the part that actually grinded my gears in the early phases of this transition. Everyone was so up in arms that if you didn'tIt's loops now. Oh, no, no, we're done with loops. It's graphs now. Oh, no, no, we're done with that. It's, it harnesses this, right? They're, they're constantly churning through the frontier, which in one way is actually very exciting. This is what happens when a new field opens up. It's like a new portal, and it's all spilling out. That's exciting. But it also means that if I had just been backpacking for the last year, hadn't touched a computer, hadn't witnessed this agentic moment, and I just showed up yesterday, do you know what? I would've been caught up in two weeks.

并不存在什么积累，这在某种程度上确实让人如释重负。如果你错过了过去一年的发展，只要两周就能追上前沿。如果你是一名程序员，出去在喜马拉雅山徒步了一年，回来后也只要两周就能追上进度。这实际上正是我们所经历的进步最值得称道之处。眼下有大量实验同时进行，不断而无情地筛选出哪些有效、哪些无效。你不必记住整个历程，甚至不必参与其中。你只要来了解成果就行。There's not any accumulation, which is in some ways a great relief. If you missed the past year, you can catch up to the frontier in two weeks. If you're a programmer who was out hiking the Himalayas for a year and you come back, you can catch up in two weeks. And this is actually the great credit to the progress we're experiencing. We have so many experiments running simultaneously right now that are constantly and ruthlessly sorting what works, what doesn't work. You don't have to remember or even be part of that entire journey. You can just show up for the results.

但关键的一步是，背包旅行回来之后，你得愿意成为一个全新的、与众不同的人，因为变化实在太快了。没错。我的意思是，真的，如果你去年十月出发去背包旅行，四五月份才回来，那简直就像在低温休眠舱里待了一百年——你会说：“什么，你什么意思？我们不编程了吗？”这，这是一个巨大的转变。But the key step there, when you come back from the backpacking journey, is to be willing to become a totally new, different human because Things are changing so fast. That's right. I mean, literally, if you left for the backpacking journey-in October last year and came back in April or May You might as well have been in the cryo chamber for 100 yearsit's like, "What, what do you mean? We're not programming anymore?" This, it's a it's a huge transformation.

这很令人震惊，而我其实——我的意思是，我有意把其中一些说得稍微夸张一点，以增强效果。我也明白，短暂地沉浸在悲伤中是可以的。那不是我的性情，也不是我的处理方式，但我接受这是一种经受时间考验的应对失落感的方式。对于自己熟悉、或许也非常喜欢的那个世界已不再是原来的样子而感到失落，也是可以的。It's startling, and I actuallyI mean, I'm putting some of this on slightly for effect. I also recognize that it's okay to grieve for a hot moment. That's not my disposition. It's not how I do it, but I accept that that's a time-tested mechanism for coping with a sense of loss. And it's okay to have a sense of loss that the world that you knew and maybe you were very fond of is no longer the same.

也许我应该大声、明确地说出来：我确实有那种感觉，就像一个眼泪顺着脸颊流下的美洲原住民。那里面有种悲伤。这是一场告别，是对编程旧世界的告别。这对我来说太迷人了。我花了这么多年……但这一切最终都汇聚到了这一刻。对我来说，这正是让整个旅程如此有意义的原因。I maybe I should say out loud and explicitly that I do have that, the Native American with a tear rolling down myLike, there's a sadness. It's a goodbye. It's a goodbye to the old world of programming. That's, it's so fascinating to me. I've spent so many years But it all amounted to this moment. That is, to me, what makes the entire journey so meaningful.

AI 并非从天而降。它不是某种外星技术，穿越宇宙呼啸而来，突然出现在我们这里。只要有计算机科学，AI 就一直存在。20 世纪 50 年代，当时最聪明的人们认为，大约十年就能攻克这个问题。实际花的时间长了一些，部分原因是，在通往 AI 和神经网络的道路上，我们走过一些弯路，以为其他符号表征能够大获成功，但事实并非如此。这可能让我们的进展倒退了……AI did not arrive from the sky. It was not alien technology that had blasted through the universe and suddenly showed up on our shores. AI has been around for as long as computer science has been around. In the '50s, they thought the problem was gonna be cracked in about a decade, the smartest people at the time. It took a little longer, but the reason it took a little longer was in part because we took some blind turns on the road to AI and neural networks and thought that there were other symbolic representations that were gonna carry the day, and they didn't. And that probably set us back

历史、文化与通往 AI 之路History, Culture, and the Road to AI

大约15年。所以其中一部分也是，我们必须经历游戏革命，经历3D游戏。如果没有《雷神之锤》，没有《毁灭公爵》，没有《虚幻竞技场》，我们就永远不会有AI，因为我们也就永远不会有GPU，因此也就永远不可能拥有如今这种形态的AI。我们迄今为止所做的一切，都是为了走到这一步所必需的。about 15 years. So some of it was also we had to, Go through the gaming revolution, 3D games. If we had not had Quake, if we had not had Duke Nukem, if we had not had Unreal Tournament, we'd never have gotten AI because we would never have gotten the GPUs, and therefore we would never have been able to get AI in the shape it is now. So everything we did up until this moment was required to get there.

你也是其中的一员。天哪，这真是一种祝福。能以自己微小的方式做出贡献，无论是通过训练还是玩电子游戏，真是一种祝福。说真的，你完全可以选择这样去看待它。那些你花在玩电子游戏上的时光——就我而言，是在90年代——你当时其实是在做贡献。You were part of that. HolyWhat a blessing. What a blessing to have contributed in your small part, either by training or by playing video games. Literally, you could just choose to think of it that way. All those times you spent in, for my case, in the '90s just playing video games, they were You were contributing.

是啊，我当时就在为人工智能革命作贡献，为人类文明的进步。不，当然。文明通过旧事物的消亡和新事物的诞生而进步，并以这种方式延续下去，但我觉得，哀悼的过程仍然是其中的一部分。停一会儿。没关系。花点……还有，你甚至不必接受一切都已经死了。比如，如果你仍然非常迷恋手工凿刻——要是一年前你问我，我会猜自己会更迷恋它。我很惊讶，我有点惊讶自己竟然没有那么迷恋。但我觉得，自己没那么迷恋的原因是，我发现了更有趣的东西。Yeah, I was contributing to the AI revolution right there and then moment. To the progress of human civilization. No, for sure. Civilization progresses with the death of the old and the birth of the new, and it continues in this way, but it's still the grieving process is a part of it, I think. Take a moment. It's okay. Take aAnd also, you don't even have to accept that it's all dead. Like, if you are still very attached to the hand chiseling, which if you'd asked me a year ago, I would have predicted that I would've been more attached. I'm surprised I'm kinda surpriseda little that I've not been more attached. But the reason I've not been more attached, I think, is that I found something more fun.

而且要不是这样，要是 AI 只是取代了我喜欢的东西，给了我一样我讨厌的东西，我可能会有点愤愤不平。我的意思是，这真的让人觉得……看着既好笑又精彩，还很鼓舞人心。就像毕加索突然获得了图像生成能力，然后兴奋不已，在几个月内就转变了方向。事情确实就是这样。所以，这就像是一位欣赏优美代码的艺术家，突然开始谈论玩得开心。我觉得毕加索确实是个很好的类比，因为如果你看看他早期学习技艺时的作品，那些都是写实绘画，对吧？也就是说，他当时是在训练自己，想成为一位大师，用我们所知的最佳方式来描绘现实，</assistant?>And if it hadn't been like that, if AI had just replaced the thing I loved and gave me something I hated, I'd probably be a little bitter. I mean, this really feelsIt's hilarious and awesome to watch and inspiring to watch. It's like Picasso all of a sudden like, getting access to to image generation and getting super excited and switching in a matter of months. That's literally what happened. So, like, it's an artist that appreciated beautiful code, and all of a sudden you're talking about having fun I think Picasso is actually a good parallel because if you look at his early work where he learned his craft, it was painting realistic paintings, right? Like, he was training to be a master of the old ways of depicting reality the best way we knew how,

然后，其他各种表现形式也随之出现了。立体主义来了。面对这些抽象表现形式，他并没有哀叹自己不再画文艺复兴风格的画了，也不再只是把苹果画得完美逼真。他把苹果重新想象成一个该死的方块，还为此兴奋不已。我觉得这种转变，就像是我们从一种表达方式，突然打开了闸门，眼前的色彩光谱一下子变得宽广得多。我看到了更多东西。也许这是因为我成为程序员的方式。我成为程序员，并不是因为我对 if 语句有着深深的热爱。and then along comes all these other forms of expression. Cubism comes along. And all these forms of abstract expression, he's not decrying that he's not doing Renaissance paintings anymore, that he's not just painting the perfect depiction of an apple. He's reimagining the apple to be a freaking square, and he's getting excited about that. And I feel that transition, that we've gone from this one mode of expression, and we've suddenly opened the gates where the, like, the color spectrum is so much wider. I'm seeing more. And it's perhaps because the way I became a programmer. I did not become a programmer because a deep love of if statements.

我成为程序员，是因为我想要程序。我想让原本不存在的东西变为现实。一开始，为了做到这一点，我不得不学习编程。后来，我偶然爱上了编程这门手艺，接着花了二十年深入钻研。但现在我又回来了。我又有了一个想法，迫不及待地想看到它在这个世界上实现，而 AI 几乎把实现它所需的时间缩短到了微乎其微。所以，这就像是一次加速的重新发现。I became a programmer because I wanted programs. I wanted things to exist that did not exist. And at first, I had to learn how to program to make that happen. Then I happened to fall in love with programming as a craft, and then I spent two decades really diving deep on that. But now I'm back. I'm back to having an idea and being impatient beyond belief to see it exist in the world, and AI has just shrunk that down to almost nothing. So it's an acceleration of a rediscovery.

现在我明白，并不是每个人都这样。很多程序员从一开始就热爱编程，他们被其中的逻辑结构等等吸引。我在这个领域已经待了二十年，所以我懂。不过我也认为，只要你愿意接纳它，就能发现自己身上新的面向。再说一次，我总会回到这个近乎“遗憾最小化框架”的想法上来，借用杰夫·贝索斯的说法。Now, I understand that that's not true for everyone. There are plenty of programmers who just loved programming right from the beginning, and they were attracted to the logical constructs and so forth. I mean, I've been there for two decades, so I get it. But I also think that you're able to discover new sides of yourself-if you let it in. Again, I keep coming back to this almost regret minimization framework, to borrow Jeff Bezos's terms here.

两年后的你会不会回头看自己，然后想：“唉，我把时间都浪费在为眼下的事闹情绪上了，为我的行业变了这件事闹情绪？”还是说，两年后的我回望此刻，会为自己积极投入而感到自豪，也许也曾有过一段悲伤的时刻？再说了，这些情绪都可以有。然后我会告诉自己：“我要弄清楚如今这个世界是怎么运转的；我不只是要尽可能善用眼前的一切，我还要从中创造更多可能。”Are you gonna look at yourself two years from now and think, "Oh, I spent my time well being pissy about the present, about the fact that my industry changed"? Or Would I two years from now look back upon this moment and be proud of myself for leaning in, for maybe having a moment of grief? Again, there's room for all of it. And then going, "I'm gonna learn how the world spins now, and I'm gonna make not just the best of it, I'm gonna make more of it."

我的意思是，这确实是真的，很多程序员、我的很多朋友，还有我——当然也包括你——都玩得很开心。过去三个月里，我玩电脑玩得比以往任何时候都开心。先去趟洗手间，很快回来，然后我得问问你现在实际上是怎么和这些系统交互的。I mean, it is true, a lot of programmers, a lot of friends of mine, me, obviously you, are having fun. I have had more fun with computers in the last three months than at any time previously. Quick bathroom break, and then I gotta ask you about how you actually interact with the systems now.

是啊。我得问问你的编程环境这些年有什么变化？比如键盘、语音输入，用的是什么 IDE？现在想想真够不可思议的，不过我用了将近 20 年的 TextMate。我想我是从 2005 年开始用 TextMate 的。我帮忙推出了第一个版本，之后就没什么兴趣了，也没打算换别的。直到我转用 Linux，才被迫离开自己的舒适区。现在又转向了——这该叫什么来着？智能体工程？我他妈真讨厌这个说法。我们得想个听起来像“编程”一样朴实的词，同时又能体现这是和智能体一起做的。但——Yes. I gotta ask you about how has your programming setup changed? So keyboard, voice, what's the IDE? It's crazy to think about now, but yeah, I used TextMate for almost 20 years. I used TextMate starting in 2005, I think. I helped get the first version out, and then I just wasn't interested. I wasn't in the market for an alternative. And it wasn't until the switch to Linux that I was forced out of my habitat. And now with the switch to, what are we calling it? Agentic engineering? Oh, I fucking hate that term. We gotta come up with something that sounds as plain as programming, but encapsulates the fact that it's with agents. But-

我仍然觉得，现在应该把它称为编程。好吧，我们就叫它编程。借助智能体进行编程需要一套不同的工具，确实如此。这里最主要的变化是，你从脑海中的单线程编程转向了并行处理。I still think it should be called programming at this point. All right, let's just call it programming. Programming with agents requires a different tool set. It really does. And the main change here is that you're going from single thread programming in your head to parallel processing.

不久之前，当我还在 TextMate，甚至 Neovim 里像雕刻一样手工编写代码时，我会一次只专注于一个问题，然后有条不紊地解决它，而这实际上就是进入心流状态的入口。进入心流的入口，就是深入沉浸于一个问题，并把它解决到底。When I was writing code, chiseling it by hand in TextMate or even Neovim, Not that long ago, I would just focus on one problem at the time, and I would methodically work my way through it, and that was actually the portal to flow. The portal to flow was deep, immersion into a single problem, see it through to the end.

智能体的运作方式并非如此，部分原因在于它们快得太快，慢得又太慢。你让它们做一件事，它们不会像你在键盘上打字那样立刻给出回应。所以你得让智能体先处理一会儿。于是你会意识到，嗯，如果我就这么坐着等它们，首先，这感觉一点也不高效。That's not how it works with agents, in part because the agents are at once both too fast and too slow. They don't give you an immediate reply on something that you asked them to do that's the same as typing on a keyboard. So you have to let the agent cook-for a bit, and therefore you realize, well, if I just sit around waiting for them, first of all, that doesn't feel productive.

即使智能体——哪怕只有一个——可以非常高效，你也不会觉得它有多高效。感觉并不好。实际上，你会觉得自己有点没用。也许在最初那个智能体时刻到来时，我曾有过那么一刻；那时候我们——我基本上一次只运行一个智能体，我当时觉得：“我不确定这事行不行。”Even if the agent, just one of them, can be highly productive, it does not feel productive. It does not feel good. It feels actually like you're a little bit useless. And maybe I had a moment, when the first agentic moment was there and we, I was running mostly one agent at a time where I felt like, "I don't know about this."

但你只要投入更多资源，就能解决很多难题。这就是 AI 本身的扩展定律，对吧？如果你把这些任务并行处理，不是只运行一个智能体，而是同时运行几个，你就会觉得自己进入了心流状态，因为你一直在做编程相关的工作：做决策，帮助智能体解决阻碍——比如它不确定该往哪个方向走，需要你指点；或者你已经准备好接手新任务。要做到这一点，你需要采用不同的工作环境。我一开始是用 tmux 来做的，把界面分成多个窗格。你可以把它想成带标签页的终端：打开一堆标签页。我觉得大多数人都很清楚这是怎么回事——他们不会只用一个标签页工作。But you can solve a lot of hard problems by simply throwing more resources at it. This is the whole scaling law of AI of itself, right? That if you parallelize these things and you're not running one agent, but you're running a handful, you can feel like you're in a flow state because you're constantly doing programming work in the sense that you're making decisions, and you're helping either unblock an agent because it has a question about which direction to take, or you're ready for a new task. And to do that, you need a different setup. I started first doing it in tmux and just having separate panes and having separate splits. Basically, a terminal with tabs is a good way to think about it. You open a bunch of tabs. I think most humans know exactly how that works. They don't work in just one tab.

所以还是坚持用终端、CLI。绝对是。所以你不用 Claude Code 应用，或者——不，Codex 应用，或者……我特别喜欢这场智能体革命是在终端里开启的，因为我本来就非常喜欢 TUI，也就是终端用户界面，而且一直都很喜欢终端。那感觉真是个很棒的地方。那是个美妙的地方。现代终端就是个看起来很舒服、适合工作的地方。所以我喜欢这一点。然后，还有多个智能体这件事，尤其是当它不再只是让多个智能体在你自己的机器上运行，而是你开始运行多个……So still sticking to the terminal, CLI. Absolutely. So you're not using Claude Code app or the No. Codex app or the I love the fact that this agent revolution was kicked off in the terminal because I was already a huge fan of TUIs, terminal user interfaces, and the terminal in general. That feels like a, a really nice place to be. It's a beautiful place to be. The modern terminal is just a good-looking place to work. So I like that. And then this fact of having multiple agents, especially once it's not just multiple agents running on your own machine, but you start running multiple

机器。现在光靠 tmux 已经不够用来跟踪它了，所以最近我改用了一个叫 Herdr 的东西。Herdr 本质上就是 tmux 加上智能体通知。这样，每当你的智能体完成任务、需要你做点什么时，它就会叮的一声，像个小铃铛，告诉你它已经准备好等它的人类来处理了。呃，它是主人还是仆人？我也不太确定。machines. Now tmux alone is not enough to keep track of it, and that's why as of late I've switched to this thing called Herdr. And Herdr is essentially tmux plus agent notifications. So whenever your agent is done and needs something for you, it goes ding, a little bell telling you it's ready for its human, uhIs it master or servant? I'm not quite sure always.

但它已经可以用于做出决策，而且还能跟踪这些设备是否处于工作模式。所以我搭建了这个 Herdr。实际上，我在多台独立的机器上都运行着 Herdr。大约一个月前，我突然进入了一段疯狂折腾的时期，意识到只用一台机器做这项工作实在不够快。这就像我发现了多核编程，但手头只有两个核心。我就想：“要是有 16 个核心呢？要是有 32 个核心呢？要是有 64 个核心呢？”于是我立刻出门买了这些很棒的 KVM，叫作 GL.iNet Comet。But it is ready for a decision, and it also keeps track of these is it in working mode or not. So I have this Herdr set up. I have multiple Herdr setups actually running on individual machines. I went on this crazy phase just about a month ago realizing that doing this work on a single machine is not fast enough. It's like I've discovered multi-core programming, but I only have two cores. I'm like, "What if I had 16 cores? What if I had 32 cores? What if I had 64 cores?" So I instantly went out and I bought these amazing KVMs called GL.iNet Comets.

它们的工作方式是这样的：这是一个小盒子。你插上 HDMI，插上 USB，然后把它连接到电脑。它就像一个……And what they do is it's this little box. You plug in HDMI, you plug in USB and connect it to the computer. It's like a

工具、工作流程与未来Tools, Workflows, and the Future

KVM。所以，KVM 是一种远程控制电脑的方式，但它特别之处就在于使用起来非常简单。把这个设备接上，打开一个网页，登录一次，设置一个密码。现在，这个设备就能接入你的 tailnet。这是过去一年里对我来说另一场革命：发现了这些 WireGuard 网络。呃，Tailscale 本质上就是把你拥有的所有电脑变成一个本地网络，无论你身在何处。KVM. So a KVM is a remote way of controlling a computer, but what's special about this is just how easy it was. You connect this thing in, you go to a webpage, log in once, set one password. Now this thing can hop on your tailnet. This has been the other revolution of the last year for me, is discovering these WireGuard networks. Uh, Tailscale is essentially turning all the computers you have into a local network wherever you are.

就像现在，我可以通过手机直接访问我马里布办公室里的所有电脑，也可以访问我哥本哈根办公室里的所有电脑。我可以像坐在它们旁边一样操作它们，无需在防火墙上开洞，也不用配置复杂的 VPN。Like right now on my phone, I have direct access to all the computers in my Malibu office. I also have access to all my computers in my Copenhagen office. And I can treat them as though I sat right next to them without having to punch holes in a firewall or set up complicated VPNs.

而它所做的，就是降低启用新算力所需的门槛。我一发现这一点，就看了看自己的储物间，意识到之前做实验时买了好几台迷你电脑，于是我就想：“要不把它们全都连起来？”然后我就把储物间里的四台电脑连在了一起。它们每台都装着自己的小 Comet，突然间，我就能同时在更多电脑上运行智能体，还能用 Herdr 控制它们。And what this does is it just decreases the friction it takes to get new compute online. So as soon as I discovered this, I looked at my closet, and I realized I had a bunch of mini PCs from prior experiments, and I just said, "What if I just connected all of them?" And I just connected four of the computers-in a closet. They all had their little Comet, and suddenly I could run agents on more computers at the same time, and I could control them all with Herdr.

确实到了一个我自己的处理能力达到上限的地步。我想大概是在……怎么说呢？大约有四五台机器在运行，我不知道，三个代理。我大概有 16 个线程。这就是我能运行的数量。代理运行得越快，当然我能运行的线程数就越少；但按目前的速度，我能运行大约 16 个线程。嗯，在全速运行的情况下。And it did get to a point where I maxed out my own processing power. That I think at aboutWhat do we want to put it? About four to five machines running, I don't know, three agents. I have about 16 threads. That's what I can run. And the faster the agents run, of course, the fewer threads I can run, but at the current pace, I can run about 16 threads Mm-hmm, at full acceleration.

这也是为什么我从一开始只是对智能体时代感到兴奋，到现在简直兴奋得有些忘乎所以。因为我觉得，正如你所说，其中有些东西确实有点让人招架不住。再说一次，我们电脑的带宽还停留在拨号上网的水平。我的意思是，这其实挺好笑的。你想想，一年前我还坐在这里，一行一行地敲代码。对。And that's part of why I've gone from just being excited about the agent moment to being delirious. Because I think as you say, some of it is a little assaulting. Again, we're on a dial-up bandwidth-wise with our computer. I mean, it's actually hilarious. So you think of I'm sitting here a year ago, right? I'm chiseling my code. Yeah.

我在写代码。大概花一个小时，我就能写出一个漂亮的控制器、一个漂亮的模型。也就是说，写好一个文件。我确实在上面花了不少心思，对吧？所以可能还剩 60 行左右。那我此刻的产能大概是每小时 30 行。我觉得这已经算高了。也许是每小时 20 行。现在我同时跑着 16 个线程。有时候，我每小时能产出几百行，或者说每小时写出几百行代码。好，我先在这里停一下。I'm writing my lines. And over the course of, like, an hour, I will have written one beautiful controller, one beautiful model. Like, that's one file. And I've really worked on it, right? So maybe there's 60 lines left. So maybe my bandwidth at this moment is, like, 30 lines an hour. I think that's even high. Maybe it's 20 lines an hour. Now I'm running 16 threads. I'm producing at some times hundreds of lines of hour or hundreds of lines of code per hour. Now, let me pause myself there for a hot moment.

我讨厌那个指标，对吧？比如说，用代码行数来衡量这些东西，本来就是个蠢指标。我觉得，编程圈里有些人嘲讽这种 AI 癔症是有道理的：大家都在谈自己写了多少行代码，然后你问他们：“你做出了什么？”他们就说：“嗯，我……”I hate that metric, right? Like, lines of code is a stupid metric in general to measure these things, and I think it's right from some in the programming community to ridicule the AI psychosis when everyone talks about the number of lines of code they're writing, and then you ask them, "What did you build?" And they're like, "Well, I"

然后就得不出什么好答案，对吧？这只是个很好的简写，用来……它是个很好的简写。它代表或概括了产出量有多大。至于产出是好是坏，这并不能说明什么。但我现在的产出多得多了，对吧？因此我能够让所有这些线索都继续推进。And then no good answer comes out, right? It's just a nice shorthand to It is a nice shorthand. It is a representation or encapsulation of how much output that's coming out. Now, whether the output is good or bad-is not a referendum on that. But I was producing and producing so much more now, right? And therefore I'm able to keep all these threads going.

这就是目前的配置。它仍然是 Neovim，不过现阶段我不怎么写代码，所以我把 Neovim 当作项目浏览器，然后用它启动 Lazy Git，查看项目的变更日志。即便如此，我觉得要是 GitHub 显示拉取请求能再快一点，直接在网页上处理可能其实更方便。我也不确定。我还试用过另一个工具，叫 Hunk，它能以非常棒的方式呈现 Diff，你也可以看看。不过我发现，看 Hunk 的时候，我只能看到变更集；而在审查代理生成的输出时，我通常还想看看周边的上下文。哦，是的，它改了这个文件，但另一个没动过、却可能本该修改的文件里有什么？所以我还是喜欢用 Neovim 来……So that's the setup. It's still Neovim, but at this point, I'm not writing a lot of code, so I'm using Neovim as a project browser and then as a way to kick off Lazy Git to see the change log for what's there. And even that, I'd say if GitHub was a little faster at showing you your pull request, the web is probably actually a nicer place to do that. I don't know. There's also this other tool I've been playing with a bit called Hunk, which just produces Diffs in a really nice way. So you could look at that too. But I find that when I look at Hunk, I only see the change set, and when I'm reviewing output from an agent, I often want to see the surrounding context. Oh, yeah, so it changed this file, but actually, what do we have in this other file that wasn't touched but maybe should've been touched? So that's why I still like Neovim as a way of doing

它。不过，顺便说一句，当然，这一切都发生在 Amachi 里。所以这一切都运行在 Linux 上。这是智能体领域的另一个重大突破。智能体喜欢 Unix 哲学。它们喜欢可以通过命令行调用的独立工具，而在地球上的主流操作系统中——这里我算三个：Mac、Windows、Linux——没有哪个系统在这方面比 Linux 做得更好。Linux 里的一切要么是配置文件，要么是 CLI 工具。不过就在五分钟前，这还是它最大的缺点。人们不喜欢 Linux，原因就在于此：它全是配置文件和 CLI 工具。it. But it's all happening, by the way, of course, in Amachi. So it's all happening on Linux. And this was the other major breakthrough with agents. Agents love the Unix philosophy. It loves individual tools that it can invoke through the command line, and there is no operating system on Earth of the majors, I'm counting three here, Mac, Windows, Linux, that works as well with that mechanism as Linux. Everything in Linux is either a config file or a CLI tool. Now, that was its main drawback five minutes ago. This was the reason people didn't like Linux. It's like it's all config files and CLI tools.

真是讽刺，老天跟我们开了这么大的玩笑：几分钟前还算是 Linux 缺点的东西，如今却成了它的主要卖点之一。四个月前，我有个周末被困在一台 Mac 旁边时，就想过这事。我以为我要去的地方有一台 Linux 电脑，所以没带笔记本电脑；到了才发现，那里只有一台 Mac mini。What great irony that the universe has played it upon us that now the drawbacks of Linux five minutes ago are now its major selling points. This was one of the things I thought I was stuck for a weekend with a Mac four months ago. I thought I had a computer at the place I was going that was a Linux machine, so I didn't bring my laptop, and I found out when I arrived I only had a Mac Mini.

所以我就想尽量把眼下这糟糕的情况变得好一些，按照我之前考虑在 Linux 上采用的一些方式来设置我的 Mac。现在你确实能做很多事了。Homebrew 已经相当不错了。Homebrew 是 Mac 上缺失的包管理器，在让 Mac 更容易设置这方面，没有谁比它做得更多。不过，就连 Raycast 这么简单的东西——不知道你用没用过——它就是……你没法直接访问配置文件。你得进图形界面，导出一个文件，然后拿着那个文件，我也不知道，塞进你那该死的背包里，存到一根 USB 闪存盘上。So I was gonna make the best of a bad situation here and, Set up my Mac in some of the ways I've been thinking about with, With Linux. And you can actually do a lot now. Homebrew has gotten really quite good. Homebrew is the missing package manager for the Mac, and no one has done more to move the Mac forward in terms of ease of setup. But still something as simple as Raycast, I don't know if you've used that. That's the There's no config file that you can just access. You have to go into the GUI, export a file, then take that file, I don't know, in your freaking backpack on a USB key.

然后你就可以在别的地方导入它。你没法把整台机器的配置过程完全自动化。Mac 默认按键绑定的配置完全无法自动化。你必须手动设置机器，像个穴居人一样用鼠标点来点去。不过嘛，也有办法绕过这个限制。And then you can import it somewhere else. You cannot automate the entire setup of your machine. You can't automate at all the configuration of Mac's default key bindings. That has to be a manual process where you're clicking with a mouse like a caveman to set up your machine. I mean, there's ways around it.

没有好的。我找过，也努力试过。所以这就是我的经历，我一路走来的历程。显然我是个 Linux 用户，但因为 Adobe Premiere 和 Adobe 的产品，我也会用 Windows，所以我经常会用 WSL，也就是 Windows Subsystem for Linux。在 Windows 里面运行 Linux，而在智能体时代，这种 Linux 不太理想，因为它只是……它只是个沙箱，而你希望 Linux 能不受限制，什么都能做。Not good ones. I looked. I tried hard So here's my, been my journey. Obviously I'm a Linux person, but because of Adobe Premiere, Adobe products, I'm also a Windows person, so oftentimes I would use WSL, Windows Subsystems for Linux. So Linux inside Windows, which isin the agentic era is not a good kind of Linux, 'cause it's just It's a sandboxit's a sandbox, and you want the Linux to be unleashed to be able to do everything.

没错。所以我现在开始接触 GrayCat 这类东西了。你知道，我是个键盘党。配置文件在哪儿？我能不能基本上让一个智能体帮我把所有东西都设置好，并保存配置，这样我就能在不同系统之间复用，一切都自动化？所以我不得不问很多这类问题，而其中很多问题都还没有答案。Correct. And so I have now woken up to things like GrayCat, and have you know, I'm a keyboard person. Where's the config file? What, can I, can I basically do everything where an agent can set everything up for me and save the configuration so I can replicate it across systems and everything's automated? And so I had to ask a lot of those questions, and a lot of them are missing.

他们没有好的答案。但很多时候，你其实可以自己开发这个应用。不过有一些取巧的办法。对，都是些取巧的办法。确实有一些取巧的办法。They don't have good answers. But oftentimes you could actually just build the app yourself. But there are hacks. Yeah, they're hacks. There are hacks.

你不必这样活着，Lex。有更好的……其实，现在正是个绝佳时机。直到你有了视频编辑器。所以现在是个好时机。没错。You don't have to live like this, Lex. There's a betterActually, this is a great moment. Until you have a video editor. So this is a good moment. Yep.

呃，我听说今天是你生日。所以我带了份小礼物。不行，不管你愿不愿意，我们都要让你用上智能体操作系统。这太棒了。Um, I heard it was your birthday. So I brought a little gift. No. We are going to get you onto the agentic operating system whether you like it or not. This is awesome.

我问了我在戴尔的朋友，看看他们是不是有台机器，嗯，我可以买来当你的生日礼物。哦，不。所以这就是我用的那台机器——也就是，呃，我用的同一台，不过现在它是你的了。这是一台戴尔 XPS 14，已经装好了 Omarchy 4，随时可以为你配置。等你意识到你所有的……顺便说一句，我们差不多该计时了。你就能启动并运行起来。And I asked-my friends at Dell whether maybe they had a machine that, um, I could get you for your birthday. Oh, no. So here's the machine I use-which is-well, the same one I use, but it's now yours. It's a-Dell XPS 14-already set up with Omarchy 4-ready to be configured for you. And once you realize that all yourBy the way, we should almost time this. You can be up and running.

你得在大约一分钟内回答五个问题。要是你愿意，完全可以现场做。哦，Omarchy，DHH 打造的漂亮、现代、很有主见的 Linux。好，来吧。对，我说的时候你就把它填完。所以——你刚才意识到的情况完全没错：我在 Mac 上遇到的那种痛苦，就是我大概一个周末的体验。我真的很努力地尝试了，也找到了一些还不错的变通办法，主要是 Homebrew 现在有用于图形界面应用的 tap。想想不久以前，人们还会去网站上找软件，这事儿就挺好笑的。比如说：“我需要 Zoom。”他们会打开 zoom.com，找到下载链接，下载一个 DMG——双击它，然后看到一个奇怪的……You have to answer, like, five questions in about one minute. You could literally do it live if you wanted to. Oh, Omarchy, beautiful, modern opinion Linux by DHH. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, fill it out while I talk. So-exactly what you realized, that pain on the Mac was the exposure I got for about a weekend, and I tried really hard, and I found some decent workarounds, the main one being that Homebrew now has tabs for GUI apps. Because it's hilarious to think upon the recent past where people would go to websites, like, "I need Zoom." They would enter zoom.com, find the download link, download a DMG-double-click on that, see a weird

手动操作就是让他们把一个图标从屏幕上的一个位置拖到另一个位置，这就是安装应用的方式。你就这样一遍又一遍地操作，直到装齐所有想要的应用。如果你要设置一台新机器，手头有比如 12 个应用，就得像个彻头彻尾的原始人一样，跑到 12 个不同的网站去下载。manual interaction telling them to drag an icon from one place of the screen to the other, and that was how you installed apps. And you'd just do that over and over again until you had all the apps that you wanted, and if you were setting up a new machine and you had, like, 12 apps, you'd go to 12 different websites to download them like a total caveman.

Homebrew 已经解决了其中很多问题，但还没有全部解决；至于……方面，它什么也没解决。抱歉打断一下，不过看看这速度有多快。哦，大约 40 秒就能完成。然后你就会进入 Omarchy。Homebrew has solved a lot of that, but it has not solved all of it, and has solved nothing in terms of the Sorry to interrupt, but look how fast this is going. Oh, it's gonna be done in about 40 seconds. And then you're gonna be inside of Omarchy.

Super 键就是键盘上的 Windows 键或 Command 键。那么，哪个是 Super 键呢？没错，就是 Windows 键。哦，等等，不对不对，你这台是特别版。全世界这样的电脑大概只有六台。哦，这里有个 Super 键。上面写着“Super”，再看看键盘另一端的 Copilot 键在哪儿。那就是 Omarchy 标志。Super is the Windows or Command key on your keyboard. So which one is the Super key? Yep, that's the Windows key. Oh, actually, no, no, you have a special edition. There are only about six of these computers in the world. Oh, there's a Super key. It says Super, and look at where the Copilot key is on the other end of the keyboard. That's the Omarchy logo.

不错。好，太棒了。这位是戴尔的斯宾塞·布尔，我一直和他合作处理很多这类事情。他们一直都非常出色。他们曾一度放弃了 XPS 品牌。没错，去年确实如此。Nice. Okay, cool. This was Spencer Bull at Dell, who I've been working with on a lot of this stuff. They've been incredible. They, for a moment, let go of the XPS brand. Yes, they did, last year.

我当时就想：“这太蠢了。XPS 太棒了。”他们不仅愚蠢地去掉了 XPS 品牌标识，还去掉了 Esc 键，在顶部换上了电容式触控按键。苹果大约三年前就意识到这个错误有多糟糕了，所有人都讨厌他们这么做。And I was like, "This is dumb. This isXPS is awesome." It was not just dumb that it got rid of the XPS branding. They also got rid of the Escape key and put in capacitive touch buttons at the top. The mistake that Apple realized like three years ago was terrible, and everyone hated them for them.

但现在他们拥有了一支非常出色的团队，而这实际上是我给自己买的第一台戴尔笔记本电脑。因为我们的服务器一直用戴尔。我们的云迁出就是由戴尔设备支撑的。我想，我们从 2000 年代中期就一直在用戴尔了。但我从来没用过他们的笔记本电脑，因为跟 MacBook 相比，它们实在无法满足我的需求。2016 年的 XPS，或者说 2026 年搭载英特尔 Panther Lake 芯片的 XPS，是我个人真正愿意用的第一批戴尔笔记本。说来也挺有意思的，因为当初我对苹果很生气时，我想：“你知道吗？我干脆买台戴尔好了。”反正我们已经在用戴尔了，诸如此类。于是我买了一台戴尔，然后我就想：“伙计，我真的不行。我真的不行。”But now they have an incredible team, and this was actually my first Dell laptop for myself. Because I've been using Dell on our servers. Dell was what powered our cloud exit. We've been running Dell since the mid-2000s, I think. But I never ran their laptops, because compared to a MacBook, they just weren't up to the task for me. The XPS' from 2016, or from 2026, with those Intel Panther Lake chips, are the first Dells that I would personally actually use. And it's funny because when I got mad at Apple originally, I thought, like, "Do you know what? I should just get a Dell," because we already used them and whatever, and I got a Dell, and I was like, "Man, I can't do it. I can't do it.

“这还不够好。”然后你瞧，今年他们竟然把所有问题都解决了。他们改善了续航、性能、兼容性和重量，还升级了屏幕。那是一块串联 OLED 屏幕。没错，简直太惊人了。It's not good enough." And then lo and behold, this year they just fixed everything. They fixed the battery life. They fixed the performance. They fixed the compatibility. They fixed the weight. They fixed the screen. That's a tandem OLED screen Yeah, that's incredible.

这意味着它的技术实际上比你在那台该死的 MacBook 上能得到的还要好。它比 MacBook 更轻，而且这款芯片终于有了竞争力，因为英特尔花了整整五年左右开发这款……which means it's actually better tech than what you'll get in a freaking MacBook. It's lighter than a MacBook, and the chip is finally competitive because Intel spent a good five years developing the

雄心、社区与 OmarchyAmbition, Community, and Omarchy

18A 工艺节点。等了很久，不过现在它终于来了，简直太不可思议了。我们终于有了能与苹果 M 系列芯片竞争的产品——续航可以媲美，性能也有一战之力。它还自带一个很漂亮的默认主题，然后这是什么？Super Space 打开了。18A process node. It took a long time, but now it's here, and it's freaking incredible. We finally have competition to Apple M chips-that can go as long as on battery and can have competitive performance. And there's a beautiful default theme to this thing, and then what is it? Super Space opens up.

实际上，你只要按一下 Omarchy 键就行了。它会打开菜单。这样你就可以从那里控制所有东西了。哦，跟 Super 键一样。好。嗯。不错。Actually, you can just push the Omarchy key. It opens up the menu. So now you control everything from there. Oh, same thing as the Super. Okay. Yeah. Cool.

和 Super Space 是一样的。这对我来说是个巨大的变化，因为我们终于有了不需要为它找借口的 Linux 电脑。我不介意找借口，因为借口说到底就是取舍的另一种说法。我很喜欢 Framework 13，我想上次聊过它。我现在还是喜欢它们，它们依然是很好的电脑。但我觉得很多人并不想要 DIY 体验。他们想要的是一台开箱就让人觉得在做工等方面能与 Mac 媲美的电脑，而现在我们终于有了。生日快乐。Same thing as Super Space. So this has been a huge change for me, that we finally have Linux machines that you don't have to make excuses for. Because I don't mind making excuses because excuses are really just another word for trade-offs. I love that Framework 13 I think I talked about last time. I still like them. They still make good computers. But I think for a lot of people, they didn't want a DIY experience. They wanted something that just out of the box felt like it was on par in build quality and whatever with Macs, and now we finally have it. So happy birthday.

非常感谢。DHH 送的 Omarchy 戴尔笔记本电脑是最棒的生日礼物。太赞了。顺便看看屏幕保护程序。是啊，确实挺惊艳的。我看到了。在那块串联 OLED 屏幕上，画面美极了。Thank you so much. An Omarchy Dell laptop from DHH is the best birthday present. This is awesome. Check the screensaver, by the way. Yeah, it's kind of amazing. I'm seeing it. On that tandem OLED screen It's gorgeous.

简直棒得令人难以置信。看看这个。整个东西都带着一种复古感。完全是这样。它有点像 Fiverr 流行风格——就像在 90 年代运行公告板系统一样，而这正是我 14 岁时做过的事。所以对我来说，这完全是一次怀旧回归，而且这种美学很棒，把 Unix 中现代兴起的文化气息与 90 年代的怀旧感结合在了一起。it is absolutely mind-bogglingly awesome. Look at that. There's like a retro look to the whole thing. Totally. It's like Fiverr pop It's like running a bulletin board system in-the '90s, which is exactly what I did when I was 14 years old. So for me, it's a complete throwback and an awesome aesthetic, combining this sense of modern rising culture in Unix with-this throwback of the '90s.

是啊，就像是面向智能体的操作系统采用复古风格。没错，真不可思议。这也再次印证了这一点。这就是为什么我会对所有这些智能体运行框架以 TUI 的形式出现、以 CLI 的形式出现、以终端的形式出现感到如此兴奋——因为程序员和普通用户中的新一代人，突然都发现了终端的魅力。终端实际上是我们所能拥有的最令人印象深刻、效率最高的用户界面之一。Yeah, like a retro look for an agent first OS. Exactly. It's crazy. Which again, pairsThis was why I was so excited that-all these agent harnesses arrived as TUI's, arrived as CLIs-has arrived as a terminal because suddenly, a whole new generation of both programmers and regular users discovered the glory of the terminal. The terminal was actually one of the most, impressive and productive user interfaces we can have.

从那以后，我们打造了更容易上手的用户界面。鼠标是一项了不起的发明，让不太懂电脑的人也能通过随意点击来探索和发现；而终端则是为那些想了解自己的系统、学习键盘命令的人准备的。Now, we've built user interfaces since then that were easier to learn. The mouse is a wonderful invention for letting someone who doesn't know a lot about computers just click around and find things out, but the terminal is for people who want to learn their systems, who want to learn the keyboard commands.

所以你觉得 TUI 会一直存在下去？绝对会。不过它不会是唯一的选择。当然不会，因为这些实验室如今的估值高达数万亿美元，所以它们需要触达数十亿人。我不认为我们会教数十亿人 TUI 的各种复杂用法。So you think the TUI is gonna stick around? 100%. Now, it's not gonna be the only thing. Of course it's not, because these labs now have trillion-dollar valuations, so they need to be able to reach billions of people. And I don't think we're gonna teach billions of people the intricacies of the TUI.

所以我们还会有其他工具，而且我们已经有其他工具了。顺便说一句，这正是 Linux 的妙处之一，比如 ChatGPT Codex 工具。对，我看到了。那个公告一发布，不到两个小时，我就已经把它打包好，准备在 Omakub 里使用了。现在，如果你前往……你实际上可以按下 Omakub 键，然后直接输入 ChatGPT。它应该会以“安装”之类的选项弹出来。So we're gonna have other tools, and we already have other tools, which is, by the way, one of the sweet things about Linux, the ChatGPT Codex tool. Yeah, I saw that. Literally within two hours of that announcement dropping, I had it wrapped up and ready to go in Omakub. Already now, if you go toYou can actually hit the Omakub key-and then just write ChatGPT. It should pop up as, like, install.

然后直接按回车。输入 Lex 的 sudo 密码。对，随便输入什么都行。然后它就会安装，接着弹出来，你就有 ChatGPT 可以用了。不错。And then just hit return. Sudo password for Lex. Yeah, whatever you put in. And then it's just gonna install it, and it's gonna pop it up, and you have ChatGPT. Nice.

很多应用都是这样构建的，所有智能体运行框架也都是如此。嗯，就像我之前提到的，Tailscale 也是这样，你要是想用的话。还有 Dropbox。之所以把这些东西都放进来，是因为我自己在用。因为我是在为自己打造这套系统，我首先想到的是：怎样才能只为自己打造一台梦想中的电脑？而如果我能拥有梦想中的电脑，我确信还会有其他人和我有同样的梦想。And that's how a lot of the apps are, and all the agentic harnesses are built in that way. Um, Tailscale, as I talked about, if you wanna hop on that, is that way. Uh, Dropbox. And the reason all these things are in there is because I use them. It's because I built this system for me, and I thought, first and foremost, how do I build my dream computer just for me? And if I get my dream computer, I am assured there are other people who are gonna have the same dreams as I do.

现在，你一心想把安装时间控制在一分钟以内，网上有不少人问你为什么。那么，为什么？你为什么如此执着于把安装时间缩短到 60 秒以内？首先，让我引用一下 Mitchell Hashimoto 的话。他创建了很棒的 Ghostty 终端，该终端也可通过 Omakub 使用，他还是 HashiCorp 的创始人。不久前，他在 X 上发了一篇很棒的帖子，其中有句点睛之语：“追求卓越，无需解释。”Now, you're obsessed about getting the installation to be under one minute, and a bunch of people asked you online why. So Why? Why were you so obsessed to getting the installation to be less than 60 seconds? First, let me quote Mitchell Hashimoto, who created Ghostty terminal that's awesome and also available on Omakub and was also the founder of HashiCorp, who had this great post on X not too long ago that had the killer line, "The pursuit of excellence deserves no explanation."

想要尽可能把东西做得更好、更快、更漂亮，根本不需要理由。我们应该追求美观、快速、用起来令人愉悦的系统。说到安装时间，有意思的是，这件事一开始其实并不是奔着一分钟的目标去的。开始着手做的时候，我还挺谦虚的。我觉得，只要能在 15 分钟内搭好整个系统，相比之前的做法就已经有了巨大的进步，我就会非常满意。而这源于基准测试已经严重失真。你提过 Commodore 64 是你的第一台电脑，对吧？Wanting to make something as good and as fast and as beautiful as possible has no need for justification. We should want beautiful, fast systems that are a delight to use. Now, the funny thing with the install time is it didn't actually start with a one-minute mission. I was being modest when it got going. I thought if I could set up my entire system in 15 minutes, it would already be such a dramatic improvement over what came before it that I would be perfectly happy. And it came off the fact that the benchmarking had been skewed so out of whack. You talked about the Commodore 64 being your first computer, right?

当你拆开那台 Commodore 64，按下电源键后，我想不到一秒钟，BASIC 解释器就准备好接受你的命令了。几乎可以说是瞬间启动，基本没有启动时间。你知道我给新买的 Mac 做好设置花了多久吗？我买它其实就是为了用一个应用——那是我至今还没能靠氛围编程在 Linux 上搞定的应用：Adobe Lightroom。When you unwrap that Commodore 64 and you hit the on button, in I think about less than one second, the basic interpreter was ready to accept your command. It was literally almost instant. There was virtually no boot time. Do you know how long it took me to set up a new Mac that I had bought for actually the one app that I still haven't vibe coded my way into on Linux, which is Adobe Lightroom?

一台全新的电脑，刚拆封。我把它设置好后，发现有软件更新。在我准备好安装 Adobe Lightroom 之前，我先把系统更新到最新版本，结果花了 42 分钟。这简直荒唐透顶，太离谱了。对于所有喜欢电脑的人来说，这简直是一种侮辱：你买了一台新电脑，却还没法使用它，就得先花 42 分钟更新出厂时已经预装在上面的东西。Brand-new computer, out of the box. I set it up. There's a software update. Before I was ready to install Adobe Lightroom that I had it fully up to date, it took 42 minutes. That's grotesque. That's absurd. That's an insult to everyone who likes computers, that you get a new computer and before you can use it, you have to spend 42 minutes doing updates on something that was already installed on it out of the box from the factory.

这简直荒谬透顶，更离谱的是，这甚至还不是最糟糕的事。我还买了台 PC，呃，因为这些 Linux 机器都是以 PC 的形式出售的，对吧？没错。而且预装了 Windows。所以我就买了一台。就在三周前。全新机器，Intel Panther Lake，该有的配置一应俱全。That is just preposterous, and it's crazy that that's not even the worst thing. I also got a PC, um, because all these Linux machines, they come as PCs, right? Right. And they have Windows pre-installed. So I got one. This was just three weeks ago. Brand-new machine, Intel Panther Lake, the whole shebang.

从拆开包装到能用，花了一个小时35分钟。你觉得你多久就进入 Omakub 了？我是说，肯定不到一分钟。一分钟吧。An hour and 35 minutes from unwrapping the thing until it's ready to use. How long did you take before you think you were in Omakub? I mean, it's less than a minute for sure. A minute.

我们完全可以造出这样的电脑。我们拥有这项技术。早在 1981 年 Commodore 64 首次问世时，我们就已经有这项技术了。如今我们拥有的电脑速度快了万亿倍，却还得花 42 分钟，甚至一个半小时来设置，才能开始使用，这让我实在恼火不已，以至于这成了我的一大热情所在。 说来也有意思，就在我们刚才稍作休息的时候，我和 Ryan Hughes——我的合作伙伴——聊了聊。我们现在觉得已经找到了一套流程，可以为特定电脑制作这种特别的 Turbo 镜像，因为这需要了解一些硬件信息，比如 Dell XPS。我们要制作一个 Dell XPS Turbo 镜像，大约 12 秒就能安装好。完整的 Linux 系统，大约 12 秒就能安装好。We can build computers like this. We have the technology. We've had the technology since like 1981 when the Commodore 64 first came out. The fact that we now have a computer that's a trillion times faster and you have to spend 42 minutes or an hour and a half setting it up before it's ready to use is so infuriating to me that it became a passion. And it's funny Just while we were having a little break here, I was talking to Ryan Hughes, my co-conspirator here. We now have, we think, a line where we can create these special turbo images that are pre-made for specific computers because it relies on some knowledge of the hardware, like the Dell XPS. We're gonna make a Dell XPS turbo image that can install in about 12 seconds. A full Linux system installed in about 12 seconds.

这真是不可思议。这种执着让我在使用计算机时感到极大的满足，因为我们不会安于现状。这就是为什么如今我置身其中的这种由智能体加速的现实如此令人振奋。因为我看到这些限制时会想：你知道吗？嗯，其实到五分钟的时候我就可以停下来了，那已经够快了。That's incredible. That obsession is what gives me this great satisfaction with using computers, that we do not accept things the way they are. And this is why this agent-accelerated reality that I now inhabit is so invigorating. Because I can look at these kinds of constraints and go, do you know what? Um, I could have stopped when we were at five minutes. That would already have been fast enough.

这就是 X 上的争论，对吧？你为什么还要继续？五分钟已经够快了。好吧，也许对你来说是这样，但对我来说，12 秒有趣多了。我总是试着从第一性原理出发思考这些问题。好吧，在那台机器上，再按一下 Omarchy 键，然后输入 speed。你会看到一个列表，其中有一项是磁盘速度。This was the argument on X, right? Why do you keep going? Five minutes is fast enough. Okay, maybe for you, but for me, 12 seconds is a lot more fun. And I always try to think these first principles. Okay, in that machine, actually hit the Omarchy, key again, and then do speed. You'll see a list come up, and one of them is, like, disk speed.

速度测试，网络速度、磁盘速度。磁盘速度。就做那个，然后运行它。所以这是在测试内置 NVMe 硬盘的性能，你测出来是多少？每秒 7 GB。Speed test, network speed, disk speed. Disk speed. Do do that one, and then run it. So this is testing the performance of the built-in NVMe drive, and what are you getting? Seven GB a second.

所以每秒 7 GB。这就是这块硬盘的速度。为什么我们不能在一秒钟内安装一个 Linux 发行版？Omarchy 发行版有 5.8 GB。如果我们能达到每秒 7 GB——当然，你实际上做不到，因为 USB 闪存盘的速度慢得多，但你应该尽可能充分利用我们面对的底层物理条件和协议，而这就是你的目标。我们得把速度一路降到那个水平。So seven gigabytes a second. That's how fast that drive is. Why can we not install a Linux distribution in one second? The Omarchy distribution is 5.8 gigabytes. If we can run at seven gigNow, of course, you can't actually do that because the USB key is a lot slower than that, but you should be able to maximize the underlying physics and protocols that we're dealing with, and that's your goal. We gotta get all the way back down to that.

是啊。我很喜欢你在做 Linux 发行版。因为，我的意思是，你本来可以做——你本来可以构建任何东西。但你选择做 Linux 发行版，这意味着你在重新思考计算机究竟是什么，因为操作系统是你与计算机交互的根本基础。Yeah. I love that you're doing a Linux distribution. 'Cause I mean, you could be doYou could be building anything. But the fact that you're building a Linux distribution means you're rethinking about what a computer is, 'cause a operating system is the fundamental, like, the foundation of howyou interact with a computer.

是的，而且它一直都这么乏味。没错。如今的 macOS 和十年前的 macOS 几乎没什么区别。事实上，很多方面反而更糟了，因为苹果仍在牢牢掌控用户。苹果不希望用户安装那些未经其批准的软件，也不希望用户在不手动操作的情况下重新配置快捷键。苹果也不愿意改动切换工作区时那段 500 毫秒的动画。Yes. And it's been so stale. Yeah, it has. The macOS we have today is scarcely different from the macOS we had 10 years ago. In fact, it's worse in many ways because Apple continues to chokehold the control on users. They don't want them to install software that they haven't already said good-to go for. They don't want users to reconfigure their hotkeys without doing it manually. They didn't want to change the 500-millisecond animation switching workspaces.

这是一台被限制得令人恼火的电脑。公平地说，苹果把这台受限的电脑做得相当不错，但我不想要一台处处受限的电脑。我想真正拥有自己的电脑。更进一步，我想让自己的电脑不断进化，而智能体时代需要一种全新的操作系统。It is an infuriatingly locked-down computer. Now, to Apple's credit, it's a pretty good computer for being locked down, but I don't want a locked-down computer. I wanna own my computer. Better yet, I wanna mutate my computer, and this is where the agentic age needs a new operating system.

当你能凭感觉编写脑海中想到的任何应用时，你也应该能够凭感觉编写自己的操作系统。你应该能够改变任何东西：它的外观、运行方式、有哪些面板、没有哪些面板，而这需要 Linux。就是这么简单。另外两种操作系统都无法做到这一点。When you can vibe code whatever app comes to your mind, you should be able to vibe code your operating system. You should be able to change anything, how it looks, how it works, what panels are there, what are not there, and that requires Linux. As simple as that. There are noNone of the other two operating systems can deliver this.

不过，你能谈谈这个吗？我记得有人问过你，大概是：“你凭什么觉得自己能做得比 Ubuntu 更好？”之类的。或者说：“Ubuntu 已经相当不错了，你为什么还要做这个？”而你的回答是：“我觉得我能做得更好。”这是在 X 上发生的。你能谈谈这种疯狂的想法是从哪儿来的——你觉得自己一个人，或者和 Ryan 一起，就能开始打造出比 Ubuntu、Arch 或者其他这些系统都更好的东西吗？But can you speak to the, I think somebody asked you, like, "Who the hell are you to think you could do better than Ubuntu?" For example. Or, or like, "Why are you doing it when Ubuntu is already pretty good?" And your answer was, "I thought I could do better." So can you speak to, this was on X, can you speak to, like, where the craziness comes from, thinking that you as one person or maybe with Ryan, you could start building something that's going to be better than Ubuntu or Arch or any of this?

嗯，我得说，一开始并没有那么宏大。我刚开始踏上 Linux 之旅时，其实只是从 Ubuntu 开始，然后在它的基础上不断构建。当时我想：这里有个已经能做很多我想做的事的系统，而且至少它是 Linux。所以，我能不能就在它的基础上继续构建，让它更现代、真正好看起来，并且装上我想用的程序？我大概做出了那么个版本，后来才发现，往下还有七层可以深入。你越接近底层、越接近内核、越接近各个独立的软件包等等，就越能发现自己拥有更多自由。于是，随着我发现的自由越来越多，我也变得越来越有野心，然后我意识到——真是意料之中——我对计算机应该如何运作有着强烈的看法，它们应该如何……Well, I'll say that it didn't start quite as grandiose. When I got going with my Linux journey, I actually just started with Ubuntu, and I just built on top of it. Here's a system that already does a lot of the things I wanted to do, and at least it's Linux. So can I just build on top of it and make it more modern, make it actually look good, and have the programs I wanna use? I got, like, some version of that, and then I discovered that there's seven layers deeper you could go, and as, the closer you get to the metal, the closer you get to the kernel, the closer you get to the individual packages and so forth, the more freedom you discover. So as I discovered more and more freedom, I got more and more ambitious, and I realized, oh, surprise, surprise, I have strong opinions about how computers should work, how they

应该是什么样子、应该安装哪些程序，以及should look, what programs should be installed, and

约束、乐趣与构建Constraints, Joy, and Building

无论安装需要 42 分钟还是 45 秒。顺便说一句，这就是目前的世界纪录。所以，如果有人在这之后安装 Omarchy Quattro，并且能打破 45 秒，截张图发给我，你就会成为新的世界纪录保持者。你是什么时候突破 60 秒大关的？那是多久以前的事了？whether they should take 42 minutes to install or 45 seconds. That's the current world record, by the way. So if anyone installs Omarchy Quattro after this and can beat 45 seconds, take a screenshot, send it to me, and you'll be the new holder of the world record. When, how long ago did you cross the 60-second mark?

这挺有意思的，因为这就像以前那个极限，叫什么来着？四分钟跑一英里之类的。对。嗯哼，就像1952年左右，人们觉得那是人类不可能突破的纪录。然后有一个人打破了它，接下来几个月里，真的又有三个人做到了，对吧？It's funny because it's like that the old limit on, what was it? It was a four-minute mile or something Yeah. Uh-huhlike that in 1952-that people thought was impossible for humans to beat. Then one guy beats it, and literally within the next few months, three more guys do, right?

所以我们当时有这么个目标。我最初定的目标是两分钟。后来我们突破了两分钟，我就想：“既然能突破两分钟，为什么不能突破一分钟呢？”我记得当时想：“那也太疯狂了。现代操作系统不可能在一分钟内安装好，毕竟它们都……”要是其他系统得花42分钟，对吧？比如苹果，那里有很多聪明人，他们都花了42分钟，所以这肯定就是基准线。So we had this goal. I originally had the goal it was two minutes. And then we beat two minutes, and I'm like, "Well, if we beat two minutes, why can't we beat one minute?" And I remember thinking like, "That'd be crazy. You can't install a modern operating system in one minute when they're all" If the other ones are taking 42 minutes, right? Like Apple, full of a lot of smart people, like, it took 42 minutes, so that's gotta be the bar.

不，不，这不是上限，因为速度没有限制。你看，几乎在任何情况下，你理所当然认为是现实中固定支柱的那些东西，其实都不是。只要还没达到这块硬盘每秒 7 GB 的传输速度，就还没触及极限，所以你应该继续突破。No, no, it's not the bar because there's no speed limit. Like, none of the things you take for granted are fixed pillars of reality in almost any case. Until you get down to the seven gigabytes per second that drive is able to transfer, you've not reached the limit yet, so you should just keep pushing.

当然，接下来它本身就变成了一场游戏，也成了一种满足感。每缩短一秒，都让我兴奋不已。我们突破一分钟大关时——我想，这个纪录其实也就三周前才被打破，甚至可能是两周前——我简直乐疯了。接着，我派出了一大群智能体，运行各种自动化研究循环，尝试各种不同的设想：比如，改动这个会怎样？改动那个呢？如果把这部分删掉呢？如果并行处理呢？如果在你输入用户名的同时，我们就开始把软件包预加载到内存系统里，这样就能更快地调用它们呢？这就变成了一场有趣的游戏。我觉得，产品开发就应该这样看待——它应该是有趣的。And of course, then it becomes a game in itself and a satisfaction itself. Every second I could shave off was an excitement. And when we broke the one-minute barrier, which was really only broken, I think, three weeks ago or something like that, maybe even two weeks ago, I just got crazy. And then I got a swarm of agents to run all these auto research loops of trying all these different theories on like, oh, if you change this thing, if you change that thing, what if you cut this out? What if you do things in parallel? What if while you were typing in your username, we start preloading packages into memory system, we can fire them in faster. And it becomes a fun game. And I think that's how you should think about product development. It should be fun.

你应该这么做，它就该有点玩票性质。应该试着超越目标，把它做得远远好过所谓“必须达到”的标准。尤其是现在，有了智能体，你可以行动得这么快，也可以尝试这么多不同的方法。没错，这只会让人更有成就感。不过我觉得这一点一直都是如此。要说有史以来最伟大的梅赛德斯-奔驰，我觉得应该是 W126。You should, it should be frivolous. It should be trying to overshoot the target and making it so much better than what it quote unquote needs to be. Especially now because you can move so quickly and you can try so many different approaches because of the agents. Yes, that just makes it more satisfying. But I think this was always true. If you look at the greatest Mercedes-Benz of all time, I think it was called the W126.

我看过一部讲它的精彩纪录片。当时负责这个项目的人，之前在梅赛德斯的安全部门工作了很多年。后来他突然被任命负责整个 S 级项目，于是把所有东西都加了进去。自动回卷式安全带、大灯清洗器，还有各种配置，都是从这儿来的。这辆车对当时的市场来说，设计得实在太过了。I saw this wonderful documentary on it. It was steered by this guy who for years had worked in Mercedes' department for safety. And suddenly he gets put in charge for the whole S-Class project, and he just puts in all of it. This is where you got the auto-retending seat belts and washers on the headlights and everything. This car was so overbuilt for the market.

简直难以置信。但你看着那个就会想：“嗯，我想要那个。”就像你看一块机械表，会想：“它能下潜到100米？”或者我觉得劳力士有一款能下潜到4000米，那个，那个深海潜水表还是什么来着。It was unbelievable. But you look at that and go like, "Well, I want that." In just the same way that you look at a mechanical watch and go, "It could go down to 100 meters?" Or I think Rolex has one that can go down to 4,000 meters, the, the deep ocean, the deep diver oceanor whatever it's called.

除了世界上那三个人之外，买下那块表的人，谁都不会真的拿它去测试。但你难道不想成为那种支持那些想大幅推动人类进步的人的人吗？我想要最快的汽车，能突破速度限制的那种。我想要一块能潜至马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。我想要一个能在不到 60 秒内安装好的操作系统。No one outside of three people in the world, whoever buy that watch, will ever put it to the test. But don't you wanna be the kind of person who is a patron of people who wanna push the human race that much forward? I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds.

所以从个人层面来说，我很钦佩那些人。我认为每个人都应该努力做到这一点。但我们也应该谈谈这样做的后果：追求卓越，即便衡量指标看起来毫无意义，也可能带来意想不到的结果，比如在其他方面取得卓越成就、发现新事物、实现创新，以及诸如此类与速度毫无关系的成果。So from the individual level, I admire those people. I think everybody should strive for that. But also the consequences of that we should mention, like the pursuit of excellence, even when the metrics seem to be frivolous, the maybe unexpected consequences of that is other kinds of excellences, discoveries, innovations, and all that kind of stuff that has nothing to do with the speed.

百分之百。这就是探索。如果你追逐的指标能成为催化剂，成为推动创新的引擎，那就很好，因为你会不断有新发现。你去月球、去火星也是同样的道理。为什么要去？谁在乎？其实，真正重要的是，你会对化学推进有很多新发现，也会深入了解人类如何在太空中长期生活。也许你还会发现全新的方式，在太空中利用太阳能、建设数据中心，或者做其他什么见鬼的事。100%. It's discovery. It's nice to have the metric that you're chasing be the catalyst, the engine that drives innovation, because you'll just discover. It's the same reason you go to the moon, you go to Mars. It's like, why? Who cares? Well, actually, the real thing is you'll discover a lot about chemical propulsion. You'll discover a lot about how humans can live for a long time in space. Maybe you'll discover whole new ways of doing solar energy in space or data centers in space or whatever the hell.

没错。各种各样的……也许你会遇到——没错，外星人，不过谁知道呢。但设定一个目标并为之努力，尤其是目标可以用数字衡量时，真的很不错。That's right. All kinds ofMaybe you'll meet- That's rightaliens, but you never know. But setting a goal and chasing it, especially when it's numerical, is really nice.

设定一个宏大的目标就更好了。当你拒绝只做切实可行的事，而是努力追求略微超出合理范围的目标时，奇迹就会发生。我们应该全力以赴。这也是原因之一。事实上，在某种程度上，这个具体目标正是受到别人这么做的启发。我是说，在这场对话中，埃隆是独一无二的那个人。And setting a grand goal is even better. When you refuse to just do what's practical and you strive for what's slightly beyond plausible, that's when the magic happens. And we should be going all in on that. This is one of the reasonsAnd in fact, to some degree, this specific goal was motivated by seeing others do this. I mean, Elon is the singular individual in this conversation.

这家伙的目标实在太异想天开了。乍一看，它们简直荒谬至极。我当然也不止一次这么觉得。可后来你会发现，有时候它们还真能实现。也许并不总能如期实现，那又怎样？那又怎样？我们不就是没能按计划造出自动驾驶汽车吗？The guy is so out there in his goals. They seem so preposterous at first glance. I've certainly considered them preposterous on many glances. And then you realize that they come true sometimes. Maybe not always on schedule, and so what? So what? So we didn't get the self-driving car on schedule.

2017 年那会儿，我狠狠批评过埃隆。但现在它真的实现了。除了那个在 2017 年就认为这事有可能的人，还有谁能带我们走到这一步呢？他对现实如此缺乏耐心，仿佛只要凭着一股蛮劲，就能把现实推到他想要的地方。我觉得这非常鼓舞人心，我们需要有人把这种目标标准往上推。我们需要有人跑完一英里只用四分钟，这样我们其他人才会意识到：“好吧，那我想我也能跑得更快些。”这就是我努力追求的，也是我在 Omarchy 上真正努力追求的，因为那样生活更有意思：怀抱远大的理想和抱负。不过我得说，在这件事上我其实稍微改变了一点想法。我花了相当多时间在另一本书里谈到，有很多人其实并不需要那些……I gave Elon a lot of shit for that back in '17. But now it's here, and who would have gotten us here except for the person who thought it was possible in '17, who is so impatient with reality that the sheer force is just gonna propel that reality to the place he wants it to be. I think that's deeply inspiring, and we need these kinds of, goalposts to be moved. We need someone to run the four-minute mile, so the rest of us realize, "Well, okay, but I guess I can run it quicker." That's what I try to strive for, and I really strive for with Omarchy because it's just more fun to live that way, to have high aspirations and ambitions. And I will say I've actually changed my mind on that a little bit. I spent quite a lot of time speaking the other book that there are a lot of people who don't actually need those

抱负。而且我也——这也没错。我们不希望世界上到处都是八十亿个埃隆·马斯克。我觉得那会相当疯狂。但我逐渐意识到，对创业者来说，设定合适的、够有分量的目标是有益的。光是经营一家意大利餐厅这个想法，还不够。也许我只经营这一家意大利餐厅，但我要做出尽可能美味的披萨，做出最可口的帕尔马干酪。ambitions. And I also- That's also true. We don't want 8 billion Elons running around the world. Would be rather crazy, I think. But I've come to realize that for entrepreneurs, it's healthy to have suitable chunky goals. The idea of just running the Italian restaurant can't just be that. It should be maybe I just run the one Italian restaurant, but I make the best damn pizza possible. I make the most delicious Parmesan.

我们必须追求卓越，才能鼓起继续前进的动力。是啊，还要敢于大胆设想，比如打造一个 Linux 发行版。你还记得我们是怎么做到这么快的吗？你提到过一些智能体发现的事情。</|im_end|>We have to strive for excellence to muster the motivation to keep going. And yeah, to dare to think big like you could build a Linux Yesdistribution. Is there some stuff you remember about what it took to get us to be so fast? You mentioned a few things that were, the agents were discovering.

其中一件事就是把人类输入的延迟当成预加载的机会。所以——嗯，你设置一台 Omarchy 机器时要回答五个问题。所以它会在后台处理事情。我们会在后台处理事情。而这件事我甚至都没考虑到，我是说，这可是最古老的技巧之一。One of the things was to treat thelag of human input as an opportunity to preload. So- Hmmthere's five questions you answer when Yeahyou set up an Omarchy machine. So it's doing stuff in the background. We're doing stuff in the background. And that was one of the things I didn't even consider, which is, I mean, the oldest trick in the book.

各种电子游戏很早以前就采用过这种做法：让玩家与某些东西互动，同时在后台进行预加载等操作。这是个由来已久的技巧，只是我之前没想到可以用在安装程序上。我原以为应该先询问用户一些信息，比如密码、用户名、时区等，然后再开始执行操作，但实际上可以提前预加载。至于其他改动，则只是调整了安装程序本身执行各项操作的顺序，其中一些也只是把它缩小了。All sorts of video games for a long time have done this, where you let the player interact with something, and then you do preloading and so forth in the background. So it's an age-old technique, but I just hadn't thought about it for an installer. I thought, first you ask the user some questions about their password and their username and their time zone and so forth, and then you do the work, when, in fact, you could preload that. Now, the other things were just a bunch of other tweaks to how the installer itself was doing things in a certain order. Some of them was also just shrinking it.

Omarchy 的上一个版本有 7.5 GB，而我们现在花掉的大部分时间，说白了就是在解压压缩的软件包文件。ISO 镜像里的内容主要就是这些，安装时间也大多花在这上面。所以把体积缩小之后——我想我们现在是 5.85 GB——减少幅度相当可观，而且几乎可以说是原封不动地转化成了安装时间的缩短。我在这方面做了一些很有意思的尝试。The last version of Omarchy was 7.5 gigabytes, and a lot of the time we're down to now is literally decompressing compressed package files. That's the bulk of what is on the ISO, and that's the bulk of the install time. So by shrinking it down to, I think we're at 5.85 gigabytes now, a pretty chunky reduction, it almost literally translated one-to-one, and I did some really interesting things there.

所以 Omarchy 用的是 JetBrains 字体，这字体很棒、很漂亮。其实我第一眼并不喜欢它，但后来发现，只有它在 Mitchell Hashimoto 的 Ghostty 里显示得恰到好处。不知道为什么，Ghostty 就是没法按照我习惯的样子显示我钟爱的 Bitstream Vera Sans。嗯哼。但它把这款 JetBrains 字体显示得完美无缺，所以我就换过去了。不过它……So Omarchy uses the JetBrains font, which is an awesome font, beautiful font, and actually a font I didn't like at first glance, but then it was the only font I could get to look perfect in Mitchell Hashimoto's Ghostty. Ghostty, for whatever reason, did not wanna render my beloved Bitstream Vera Sans just the way I was used to it. Mm-hmm. But it rendered this JetBrains font perfectly, so I switched over. But it

JetBrains 字体在 Arch 上的标准包有 200 MB，因为它包含了所有这些变体、子类型之类的东西。后来我意识到，我们其实根本用不上那些。我们用的是这个 Nerd，呃，Yepfont 补丁版里的等宽字体。你知道它有多大吗？我想是 16 MB。嗯。The standard package for JetBrains font on Arch is 200 megabytes because it includes all these variations and all these subtypes and whatever. And I realized, like, we're not using any of that. We're using the monospace version in this one Nerd, uh Yepfont patched edition. Do you know how big that is? I think it's 16 megabytes. Hmm.

所以我就直接弄出了一个新软件包，也就是 JetBrains 软件包的精简版。嗯哼，不错。就这么一来，我省下了 180 MB。我后来又这样做了很多次。NVIDIA 驱动程序也做了同样的处理。NVIDIA 驱动程序刚从软件源下载下来时——我想是 Arch 软件源——并没有采用最极限的压缩方式，也就是我想叫作 ZSTD 的那种压缩方式。它压缩速度很慢，创建归档文件要花很长时间；但如果你是在构建软件包，只要能借此缩小 ISO 文件，那你有的是时间。So I simply just came up with a new package, the slim version Mm-hmmof the JetBrains package. Nice. And there, right there, I saved 180 megabytes. I just went through and did that a bunch of times. We did that with the NVIDIA drivers too. So the NVIDIA drivers, when they came straight off the, I think the Arch repo, were not compressed with the most extreme form of compression, which I think called ZSTD, which is a really slow form of compression. It's slow to create the archive, but if you're building a package Hmmyou have all the time in the world if that means you can then shrink the ISO.

所以我想，光是那两个 NVIDIA 软件包，我们就节省了 200 MB。嗯哼。我喜欢这段话的地方是，我会想象自己是迈凯伦的一名汽车设计师。迈凯伦现在造出了世界上最轻的一些超级跑车，他们简直痴迷于从车上抠掉最后一克重量。这就是为什么即使是全新的迈凯伦 750S，也比竞争对手轻得多。他们采用碳纤维单体壳，这让他们比起法拉利之类的品牌更占优势，毕竟法拉利用的是铝材。但他们对减重也有一种执念。我看到过一次采访，迈凯伦的人在和一位记者聊天，谈到：“是啊，我们从那上面省下了，呃——370 克。是啊，从那上面……”So on just the two NVIDIA packages, I think we saved 200 megabytes. Mm-hmm. So what I loved about this was I imagined myself being a car designer at McLaren. So McLaren makes some of the lightest super sports cars in the world right now, and they are absolutely obsessed with shaving every damn last gram off their cars. That's why even a new 750S McLaren is just way lighter than the competition. They use a carbon fiber monocoque, and that helps them over like Ferrari, for example, that's uses aluminum. But they also just have this obsession with weight, and I would see this interview with the McLaren folks talking to some journalist just going over, "Yeah, we saved, uh-370 grams Yeahoff that

“一。”然后我就说：“等等，什么？有人开的车重也许有1040公斤，或者1380公斤什么的。他们……他们居然在为370克操心？”是啊，真是一群痴迷的疯子。嗯。我喜欢他们。是啊，我也想让生活里有这样的事。就为了这个，我想要一辆迈凯伦。所以当时我一兆字节一兆字节地从软件包里削减体积时，心想，天哪，我现在简直像个迈凯伦汽车开发人员，虽然——是啊，我是说，我们甚至还没完成这项工作。one." And I just went, "Wait, what? There's someone on a car that weighs maybe 1,040 kilos or 1,380 or something. They're s They're worrying about 370 grams?" Yeah. What obsessed maniacs. Hmm. I love them. Yeah. I want that in my life. I want a McLaren-just for that reason. So I thought in that moment as I was shaving individual megabytes off the packages, man, I'm kinda like a McLaren car developer here, even though YeahI mean, we haven't even completed that work.

这个软件包还可以进一步缩小。不过，Omarchy 和传统 Linux 社区之间其实还有另一个冲突，那就是臃肿。嗯哼。有些圈子里有这么一种观念：预装软件是不合规矩的，因为你凭什么替别人决定该用什么程序？我就想说：“哥们，这不都写在名字里了吗？它叫 Omarchy，因为 Oma 这部分是 omakase 的缩写，字面意思就是‘由厨师决定’。”The package could shrink even more. But this is actually this other conflict that we've had with Omarchy and the traditional Linux community is bloat. Mm-hmm. This idea that it's actually not kosher in certain circles to ship with pre-installed software because who are you to make decisions about what programs people should use? And I'm like, "Dude, it's in the fucking name. It's called Omarchy because the Oma part is short for omakase, which literally means chef's choice.

“我是主厨，由我来做选择。这就是我觉得很棒的一套应用程序，”顺便说一下，里面还有视频编辑器。它自带 OBS，嗯哼，可以用来录制。就在里面。对。OBS 是预装的。不错。Kdenlive 是一款视频编辑器，也是一款时间轴编辑器，很棒。我所有的视频都是用它剪辑的。然后我还自己做了一个片段编辑器。你刚才说到同步那件事。I'm the chef. I'm making the choices, and this is the collection of applications I think is awesome," which by the way has a video editor. It ships with OBS Mm-hmmto do your recording. It's just in there. Yeah. OBS is pre-installed. Nice. Kdenlive is a video editor, timeline editor, which is great. I edit all my videos with that. And then I made my own clip editor. You talked about the thing with syncing up.

是的。我之前遇到过片段剪辑方面的需求，比如做完播客之类的，就需要给 X 做个片段。嗯哼。用 Kdenlive 或其他时间线编辑器挺麻烦的，所以我做了 Omacut。嗯哼。Omacut 也包含在里面。Omacut，挺酷的。它就是用来制作片段的，而且可以全程用键盘操作。这样你就能直接跳到恰当的时间点，然后按 Control + Space。嗯。它会把片段线移到那个位置。Yeah. I had this thing with clips, so I would do a podcast or whatever. I need a clip for X. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of a hassle to use Kdenlive or other Mm-hmmtimeline editors, so I made Omacut. Mm-hmm. Omacut is included too. Omacut, cool. It's just for making clips, and you can drive the whole thing with keyboard. So you can go to just the right time mark Mm-hmmand then you can hit Control + Space. Hmm. It moves the clip line to that line.

然后你到片段末尾，按下 Alt + Space，末尾那条线就会移动。不错。然后按下 Control + S，就保存了。不错。现在用 Omacut 剪片段快得不得了，真棒。不过它里面装了所有这些软件：Neovim、Herder、Tmux，还有一个终端。它有一大堆主题，还有很多背景图片，都是我精挑细选出来的。这会占一些空间。它本来就该占空间，因为这并不是那种空空荡荡、什么都没有，得让你从头重新配置一切的系统。嗯哼。这应该是一个你刚拆开包装就能立刻高效工作的系统。它是用什么构建的？Then you go to Nicethe end of the clip, and you hit Alt + Space, and it moves the end line. Nice. And then you hit Control + S, and it saves. Nice. I can make clips so damn fast now with Omacut. It's amazing. But it has all the software on it. It has Neovim on it. It has Herder on it. It has Tmux. It has a terminal. It has a bunch of themes. It has a bunch of background images, the best ones I could pick out. That takes up some space. It should because this is not supposed to be this just barren landscape where you have to reconstruct everything. Mm-hmm. This is supposed to be a productive system the minute you unpack it. What is it built in?

所以实际上，Linux 配置部分大多是用 Bash 编写的。没错，Bash 很适合做这个。它本来就是为系统管理而设计的。当然，它也有局限性。你不应该什么都用 Bash 来写。So it's actually mostly built in Bash for the Linux configuration part. Right. Bash is a great language for that. It is made for that really, for system administration. It also has its limitations. You should not build everything in Bash

作为一种人类实践的编程Programming as a Human Practice

智能体生成 Bash 的表现怎么样？还不错？哦，棒极了。只有一点例外：每次我发现它犯这个错，都得敲敲它的后脑勺，提醒它去看智能体的 MD 文件，因为我会在里面写明不要提前退出。How are agents with generating Bash? Pretty good? Oh, amazing. Except for one thing, and I have to smack the agents over the back of the head every single time I catch it, and remind it to look at the agent's MD file, because I will have an instruction in there not to make early exits.

智能体很喜欢用前置条件，而不是把条件语句完整展开。我喜欢那种“如果这样，就做那件事”的写法。智能体喜欢写成“满足这个前置条件，否则退出；满足另一个前置条件，否则退出”，然后一路写到最后真正想执行的操作。我讨厌这种风格。除此之外，它已经好得令人震惊、进步巨大、简直棒极了。好到上次我们聊的时候，还说到我会让智能体给我写一段 Bash 命令，然后我自己敲进去，结果过后我就有点记不清了。The agents love to have preconditions instead of fully expanded conditionals. I like something that says, "If this, then do that." Agents like to have precondition or exit, another precondition or exit. And then it falls down to the final thing it actually wants to do. I hate that style. So except for that, it's gotten shockingly, dramatically, awesomely good, to the point where when we talked last time, we talked about how I would ask the agent for a Bash thing, and then I would type it in myself, and I kinda wouldn't remember.

然后我花了些功夫，确保自己不会把这些能力都荒废掉，所以我确实亲自学会了怎么写 Bash；而现在，我已经不亲自写 Bash 了。大概有几个月没自己写过 Bash 了，因为这些智能体已经变得非常出色，只要给它们一些风格方面的提示，偶尔对复杂性提出异议……这就是And then I took the effort to make sure that all that competence wasn't draining out of my fingers, so I actually learned how to write Bash myself, and now I'm not writing any Bash myself. I have not written any Bash myself for probably a couple months, because the agents have just gotten so good, that if you give them the few pointers on style, and occasionally put pushback on complexityThis is

几天前我在推特上发过这件事。让我觉得不可思议的是，智能体经常会做完某件事，说已经完成了，再让另一个智能体审查——对方也说完成了。然后我就会说：“呃，这看起来对我来说有点太复杂了。”接着它就会说：“哦，是啊，你说得对。你说得对，我确实把它弄得太复杂了。”然后就把复杂度砍掉一半。我就想：“它一开始不能就这么做吗？”后来有人提醒我，人也是一样的。如果你做了件事，别人审查之后只是说：“呃，这看起来有点复杂。”你往往也能回应：“啊，你说得对。”I tweeted about this a couple of days ago. It blows my mind how often an agent can do something, say it's done, have the work reviewed by another agent-they say it's done, and then I go like, "Eh, looks a little too complicated for me." And then it'll go like, "Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. I totally overcomplicated this," and it'll cut it in half. I'm like, "Couldn't it just do this, like, from the outset?" And then someone else reminded me, humans are the same way. If you work on something and someone else reviews it and they just are like, "Eh, it looks a little complicated," quite often you're able to go like, "Ah, you're right."

你看，这些小小的迹象对我来说恰恰说明程序员仍然是必需的，那种直觉。因为我想，那个，你刚才说什么来着？我对代码的整体情况有一种感觉。当我构建像 Omarchy 这样的东西时，我确实会看代码。我会看它的结构。See, that, that justThose little indications to me show that the programmer is still needed, that intuition, 'cause I think, what, what did you say? I have a sense of the landscape of the code. When I build something like Omarchy, I, I do look at the code. I look at the shape.

我看的是比例。就是说，我再也不用什么都亲自雕凿了。这又是我在自我吹捧：我上一刻还是迈凯伦的音频，呃，汽车工程师，下一刻就成了达·芬奇，和他整个工作室里那些学生一起工作——他们负责在那块精美的大理石上雕凿，对吧？然后他说：“啊，不，比例还是不太对。”现在和智能体合作就是这种感觉。我可以像编辑一样给出反馈。And I look at the proportions. Like, I don't have to chisel everything myself anymore. This is, again, when I'm flattering myself forNot one moment I'm a McLaren audio, uh auto engineer, and the next moment I'm a da Vinci, working with his whole studio of students-who are doing all the chiseling on the, the fine marble, right? And he goes like, "Ah, no, the proportions are not quite right." That's how it feels working with agents now. That I can give feedback like an editor.

你知道吗，我不会什么都自己写，但我能看出论证什么时候说服不了人，也能看出方案的复杂程度什么时候和问题不成比例，或者什么时候就是让人觉得太复杂了。而且，令人惊讶的是，这么做往往真的管用。这就像早期那会儿，大家会开玩笑说：“别犯错。”我觉得现在已经不用再这么叮嘱智能体了，因为如今的测试框架非常完善，会运行自动化测试。它们能从中得到反馈。但你确实得告诉它们：“把它做简单点。”That, do you know what? I'm not gonna write everything myself, but I can tell you when the argument doesn't land. I can tell you when the shape isn't proportional to the problem, or when it just feels like it's too complicated. And shockingly often, it just works. It's like the early days, where the jokes was, "Don't make mistakes." I don't think you have to tell the agents that anymore, because now the harnesses are so good, they run automated testing. They get that feedback. But you actually do have to tell them, "Make it simpler."

你交互时会用语音吗？还是你……你打多少字？你有多少……我全程都打字。其实，我用的是 Omarchy 内置的 Voxtype-Audio 转录功能，而且它确实很好用。我只是发现自己不是那种思考方式，而且我也挺惊讶，原来我不喜欢跟电脑说话。Do you use voice at all for the interaction? Or are youHow much are you typing? How much are you I type the whole thing. I actually, in Omarchy's built-in Voxtype-Audio transcription, and it's actually really good. I just find that I don't think that way, and it surprised myself that I don't like to talk to the computer.

呃，我在车里的时候挺喜欢用语音，但坐在键盘前的时候，我就只想打字。我也就是特别喜欢打字。你在用语音吗？我是个内向的人，不喜欢社交互动——也不喜欢说话。我觉得这对我来说也是一部分原因。不过，对我来说，不知道为什么，语音真的很强大。我想把这个……所以我会用这个东西。它叫 Plaud。我就把它夹在我的 T 恤上，你知道，就夹在这里。Uh, I like when I'm in the car, but when I'm in front of the keyboard, I just wanna type. I also just love typing. Are you using the voice? I'm an introvert who doesn't like social interaction-or speaking. And I think that's part of mine too. But, like, for me, for some reason, voice is really powerful. I want to give thisSo I, I run with this thing. It's called Plaud. So I, I just hook it up on my, you know on my T-shirt here.

你按下一个按钮，它就会开始录音。就流程而言，这实际上比坐在电脑前操作体验好得多。而且我，呃，会保存下来。通常，我想深入讨论的都是智能体生成的问题。所以我会写一段很长的提示词，也会把它口述出来，其中很多内容就像是意识流式的推理。有时候我会改变对某个设计的想法，但这些内容都会记录在里面，然后我会用一个大语言模型来处理。Plaud 显然提供了 API。你可以获取录音、转录内容，再清理一下转录稿，因为你想让它……我说的是文件。You press a button, it starts recording. And this is actually more, in terms of flow, much better experience than behind a computer. And I, uh, save, well, usually it's agent gen generated problems that I wanna really talk through. And so I write, I speak a long prompt, like, and a lot of it, it's like stream of consciousness reasoning. So I'll sometimes just change my mind about a design, but all of that is in there, and then I have an LLM that processes that. With Plaud, there's a, obviously an API. You can grab it, transcribe it, clean up the transcript, 'cause you, you want it to be'Cause I'm referring to files.

我指的是文件、函数之类的技术概念——你会想确保转录，也就是语音转文本，能正确识别这些内容。所以你需要一个词典。处理文件时，你希望它了解代码库。然后你还有这么一大段内容，通常是我讲 10、15、20 分钟，讨论完整个设计；我觉得这真的非常、非常强大。因为它不会出现过度具体化的问题，毕竟系统会围绕你所设想的内容进行大量意识流式思考。对于设计的早期阶段，这真的很有用。比如，如果我想从头开始构建 Omarchy，最初几个阶段我会边讲边梳理。它可以是一个……I'm referring to technical concepts, like files and functions-and so on, that you wanna make sure the transcription, the-the speech-to-text gets correctly. So you wanna have a dictionary. You want it to be aware of the code base when you process the files. And then you have this gigantic thing that's often 10, 15, 20 minute me discussing the full design, and I find that to be really, really powerful. Because it doesn't have the problem overs of overspecification because of how much stream of consciousness thinking the system has about what you're imagining. And this is really good for the early steps of a design. Like, if I wanted to build Omarchy from scratch, the first stages, I talk through. It could be an

一个小时。我有过持续一个小时的提示词，然后我就一直运行着，并且——这太惊人了——一直在说话。我强烈建议大家尝试长时间进行语音式的 So-speaking。hour. There's been prompts that I had for an hour, and I'm just running and That's amazingand speaking. I highly recommend people try a voice-based So-speaking for prolonged periods of time.

我其实还没有。与非常具体的……我没有，嗯，我没有那样用过它，也许这就是我用错它的地方。我试着只打字或说两句话，然后就有点懊恼，觉得也许我打字也能一样快。但我还没试过这样一口气连续说 20 分钟。I haven't actually As opposed to very specificI haven't, yeah, I haven't used it that, and maybe that's how I'm using it wrong. I try to just type or speak two sentences, and then I get a little frustrated that I could've typed that just as fast maybe. But I have not tried this whole thing of just talking continuously for 20 minutes.

尤其是你，因为你说话特别快。嗯，不，我能理解。我想是因为我一直在尝试用它来处理一些事情，比如回复邮件，后来我觉得它可能会有帮助。它确实有点用，但有时会犯个小错，我就得纠正。不过，如果你只是对着一个本来就不在乎其他这些东西的 LLM 进行意识流式表达，那可能效果会好得多。And especially you because you speak very fast. Yeah. No, I could see it. I think because the reason I've been, I've been trying to do it for things like replying to emails, and it got to a point where I thought it could help. And it sort of did, but then it would make a small mistake, and I'd have to correct the mistake. But if you're doing stream of conscious to an LLM who doesn't care about all this other stuff anyway-that probably works way better.

有两件事需要做。第一，好，你拿到原始音频，把它转录出来。我用 ElevenLabs 做转录。它们可能是最好的语音转文本模型。不过还是会有错误，所以你需要一个能够访问词典以及大量……的提示词。你是怎么构建词典的？There's two things you have to do. One, okay, you have the raw audio, transcribes it. I use ElevenLabs for transcription. They're probably the best speech-to-text model. There's still mistakes there, so you need to have a prompt that has a access to a dictionary and to a lot of How do you build the dictionary?

首先，有一个与你相关的术语词典。然后让它了解……这样你就有一个代理，它会在你谈论代码时，查阅你的整个代码库，找出你经常使用的关键词。此外，在我们讨论消息、Gmail、WhatsApp 等内容时，它也了解所有相关人员，以及你经常弄错的常用词。First of all, there's a dictionary of terms that are relevant to you. Then have it aware ofSo you have an agent that looks through, when you're talking about code, looks through your entire code base for key terms that you use often. Also, when we're talking about messaging, Gmail, and WhatsApp, and so on, it's aware of all the people and common terms that you get wrong.

你在这方面确实深入研究了。对我来说，这是个需要解决的问题，因为，呃，语音转文字可能存在的问题之一就是它有时会出错。没错。那样我就没法用它来口述电子邮件了。You've really gone deep in this. That, to me, is a problem that needs to be solved-because, uh, one of the issues you probably have speech to text is that it makes mistakes sometimes. Correct. Then I can't use it for dictating an email.

对。如果它从不出错，那你……那它就会更有吸引力。是的，而且你其实可以接受它不是完全实时的。你可以接受等五秒——甚至可能更久。我不知道你的使用场景是什么。我可以接受等五到十秒，让它处理完所有内容。Right. If it never makes mistakes, you Then it would be more appealing. Yeah, and you are okay being not perfectly real time, actually. You're okay waiting five seconds-potentially. I don't know what your use case is. I'm okay waiting five seconds-10 seconds for it to process everything.

你得用 vibe coding 把这些功能整合进一个应用里，让它真正做到开箱即用。我想我私下跟你提过，翻译没能做到完美，这让我非常惊讶。语音到语音的翻译。感觉你把这些东西整合在一起后，已经非常接近目前所能达到的最佳水平了。You gotta vibe code this into an app that does all of this such that-it just works. I think I mentioned to you offline that it's very surprising to me that, translation is not done perfectly. Speech-to-speech translation. It seems like you've gotten much closer to the best of what's possible by putting all these things together.

不过你知道，发布这类东西时，确实得开始考虑延迟。别因为追求完美而耽误了把产品做得不错。我的意思是，如果你突然让人们能够做一些他们以前根本做不了的事，多花五秒钟也没关系。我觉得这是史蒂夫·乔布斯特别擅长的领域之一：他意识到，第一代 iPhone 在各方面都糟糕透了，对吧？数据连接慢得惊人，性能也严重不足，诸如此类。但这款产品实在太有吸引力了，这些问题根本就不重要。如果你非要等到一切都恰到好处、完美无缺才发布，那就太晚了。But, you know, when you're shipping that kind of stuff, you do have to start thinking about latency. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of good. I mean, if you're suddenly enabling something people wouldn't be doing before at all, it's okay to take five seconds longer. I think this is one of the areas that Steve Jobs was so good, that he realized, like, the first iPhone was terrible in all sorts of ways, right? Absolutely horrendously slow data connection, very underpowered, all the things. But the product was so compelling that it just didn't matter. You'd be shipping too late if you waited until everything was just right, just perfect.

如果你正在解决一个目前人们还没有解决方案的问题，他们愿意花五秒钟了解一下。如果你处在竞争激烈的市场，那确实不一样。但这意味着这个问题已经有人解决了，你就不需要再去解决它。嗯嗯。嗯，我确实觉得有几个……所以，像 Whisper Flow 就很不错。If you're solving a problem that people currently don't have a solution for, they're willing to give it five seconds. If you're in a competitive market, yeah, okay, it's different. But that means the problem's already solved, and you don't need to solve it. Mm-hmm. Well, I do think there's a fewSo, like, Whisper Flow is really good.

有几个人开始用那个语音转文字的东西了。是啊。是啊，我们在用 Voxtype。不过其他人……呃，Vo-Voxtype 是开源的吗？是的。它只是用了某个开源模型。我忘了它用的是哪个 Parrot 模型还是什么。用来输入简短指令效果挺好的，所以我就用它来做这个。呃，我觉得只要按住 F9，它就会开始听写。A few people have stepped up that speech-to-text thing. Yeah. Yeah, we're using Voxtype. But others have Uh, Vo-Voxtype is open source? It is. It's just using one of the open models. I forget which parrot model it's using or something like that. It works quite well for short commands, so I have used it for that. Uh, I think you just hold down F9-and it starts a dictation.

哦，所以它已经在里面了？你只要上网就行。它会提示你安装 Voxtype 软件包。明白了。对，对，对。Oh, so it's already in there? You just have to get online. It'll offer you to install Got itthe Voxtype package. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

因为 Voxtype 软件包里包含一个 150 兆字节的模型，我当时就想：“啊。”对，对。“我不知道自己能不能带得动。”所以，对，我们默认没有把它放进去，不过已经设置好了这个选项。Because the Voxtype package includes a model that's 150 megabytes, and I was like, "Ah." Yep, yep. "I don't know if I can carry that." So Yepwe don't have that in there by default, but we have the option set up.

其实就在昨天，我还在想，我们真的需要把所有这些东西结合起来。所以，Omarchy Quattro 作为一个可塑性极强的操作系统，确实令人惊叹——只要和你的智能体交谈，就能为它添加功能。但这正是我们应该做的事。很多人会觉得，直接对着电脑说话再自然不过了，比如：“嘿，能不能给我做一个股票面板？我想追踪苹果和戴尔。”然后看着智能体完全通过语音进行操作，输入和输出全都如此，接着你的操作系统就发生了变化。这就是《钢铁侠》和贾维斯的愿景，没错。And I actually just yesterday was thinking we really need to combine all of these things. So Omarchy Quattro is truly amazing as a malleable operating system where you can add functionality to it just by talking to your agent. But that's exactly what we should be doing. There's a lot of people who would find it very natural just to talk to their computer and say, "Hey, can you make me a stock panel? I wanna track Apple and Dell," and just see the agent go off through, entirely through voice, both in terms of the input and in terms of the output, and then your operating system just changes. This was the vision of Iron Man and Jarvis and Yeah

那些仿佛凭空变出来的定制应用程序。我觉得 AI 领域里真正让我着迷的是这些实时游戏模型，不知道你有没有见过：AI 会实时创造出下一帧画面，而你实际上还能玩这个游戏。我在想，既然它们能做到这一点，我们为什么不能用同样的方式改造操作系统呢？为什么不能直接跟它对话，让它换一种样子或者做出改变，然后一切就都随之改变？顺便说一句，我认为这也是另一项将推动 Linux 取得全面主导地位的突破。智能体消除了诊断 Linux 系统过程中的所有麻烦，并把 Linux 会产生过于具体、极其晦涩的错误消息这一特点，变成了它最大的优势。bespoke applications that just appear magically. I'm thinking the area of AI I find truly intriguing are these live gaming models, I don't know if you've seen that, where the AI's inventing literally the next frame, but you can actually play the game. And I think if they're able to do that, why can't we do that with our operating system? Why can't we just talk to it and ask it to be a different way or change, and it'll all just change? I think this, by the way, is one of the other breakthroughs that is going to lead to the total domination of Linux. The agents have taken all the hardship out of diagnosing Linux systems and turned the fact that Linux produces these overly specific, totally arcane error messages into its greatest advantage.

当 Linux 出现问题时，智能体可以将那条对普通人来说毫无头绪的具体错误信息，与自己预训练时接触过 4000 万行 Linux 代码这一事实联系起来，因此它确切地知道该从哪里着手，并将问题范围缩小。对。When Linux has an issue, the agent can take that very specific error message that makes no sense to a normal human and correlate it with the fact that the agent was pre-trained on 40 million lines of Linux code, so it knows exactly where to look and dial it down. Yeah.

今年年初以来，我的 Linux 机器上还没有遇到过任何智能体无法诊断的问题。一年半前可不是这样。那时，我还在论坛上四处搜索，试图找到那些冷门问题的答案。现在，智能体不仅了解 Linux 操作系统的源代码，还了解我那台机器上安装的每一款软件的源代码。智能体可以访问所有这些软件的源代码。事实上，这是我们呃……发布前我刚加进去的一项功能。所以，设置好默认智能体后——Omarchy Quattro 有一个崩溃监视器。只要你机器上的任何应用崩溃，它就会弹出一个小提示，询问你是否想让 AI 诊断问题。I have not had a single problem on my Linux machine since the beginning of this year that an agent could not diagnose. That was not true a year and a half ago. A year and a half ago, I was still searching on forums-to find answers to esoteric questions. Now the agents know the source code of not just the Linux operating system, but every single piece of software I have on that box. The agent has access to the source code of all of it. In fact, this was one thing I built in just before we, uh, we shipped. So once you set up your default agent-Omarchy Quattro has a crash watcher. If any app on your machine crashes, it'll pop up a little thing, ask you whether you want your AI to diagnose the problem.

是啊。太惊人了。难以置信。我见过这种情况：某个子系统里出了错误。有些，有些——甚至都不是 Linux，只是我安装的某个应用。那些代理就开始翻日志，查 systemd 日志。然后它竟然去看那该死的源代码。Yeah. That's amazing. Unbelievable. I've seen things where there's an error in some subsystem. Some, someNot even Linux, just some app I installed. The agents start digging through the logs and looks up systemd log. Then it checks out the damn source code.

它会指出，发生崩溃的应用程序问题出在这个 Rust 文件的第 472 行：有个没有边界限制、也没有经过包装的变量溢出了，或者出了类似的问题。然后它会问你要不要提交一份包含所有这些详细信息的错误报告。我给你讲个特别有意思的故事。有段时间我和一个叫 JDX 的人一起做事，他在开发 mise——这是一个用于快速迭代开发工具的包管理器。我们用它来管理所有的智能体软件等等。普通的包管理器可不是为一天更新七次而设计的。Of the application that crashed, pins down that it's in this Rust file line 472 that there's an unbounded, unwrapped variable that overflowed or whatever it is. Then offers you whether you wanna file a bug report with all this detail. I'll give you one amazing anecdote. So I was working with this guy JDX, who's working on mise. This, this package manager for fast-moving development tools. This is how we manage all the agent software and so forth. Normal package managers are not built to be updated seven times a day.

而且所有这些智能体运行框架每天都会更新大约七次，所以我们需要一个带外包管理器，而 mise 恰好非常适合这件事。总之，它有个小 bug。出现了某种竞态条件，而智能体特别擅长发现这类问题，因为当你开始同时运行多个智能体时，它们会揪出底层基础设施中的所有这些竞态条件；这些问题以前从未被人手动操作触发过。所以它发现了这个问题，对吧？我跟我跟智能体说：“嘿，你能把这个作为 bug 报告发到 JDX 的 GitHub 上吗？”And all of these agent harnesses are updated about seven times a day, so we needed an out-of-band package manager, and mise just turns out to be perfect for this. Anyway, it had a small bug. There was some race condition which agents are very good at finding because when you start running multiple agents at the same time, they will suss out all these race conditions you have in your underlying infrastructure that was never triggered by a human trying to do manual thing. So it finds this issue, right? I tell I tell the agent, "Hey, can you post this as a bug report to JDX's GitHub?"

不幸的是，就在那之前，我不得不让八个不同的智能体对 Omarchy 本身进行一次 QA 测试。测试发现了 28 个确实存在的问题——需要提交为 issue。结果它跑到 GitHub 上，试图一次性提交全部 28 个 issue，大概只花了，呃，我也不知道，12 秒。GitHub 把这视为疑似垃圾信息，这倒也情有可原，于是封禁了——我的 Omarchy 机器人。And unfortunately, right before that, I had had to do a QA run on Omarchy itself with eight different agents. It had found 28 real issues-that it needed to file. Well, it went to GitHub and tried to file all 28 issues at the same time, which it did in about, uh, I don't know, 12 seconds. GitHub, not unreasonably, marked that as probable spam and banned-my Omarchy bot.

然后我就没法那么做了。所以我没法让机器人访问 GitHub，于是我就跟它说：“嘿，你知道吗？直接给 JDX 发邮件吧。这是他的邮箱地址。”我之前已经给它设置好了一个 hey.com 邮箱。我们现在有一个 CLI，仍处于测试版。And then I couldn't do that. So I was blocked from the bot having access to GitHub, so I just told it, "Hey, do you know what? Just email JDX. Here's his email address." I had already set it up with hey.com-an email address. We have a CLI that's in beta right now.

所以我就用那个把它设置好了，这样它就能发送邮件。它就是这样给我发送未解决问题和 PR 的报告的。它会给 JDX 发一封邮件，告诉他发现了什么 bug，他当时就说：“等等，这是我第一次收到关于尚未发布的软件的 bug 报告。”因为它下载了 mise 的源代码，发现他已经修复了这个 bug，但这并不能彻底解决他们尚未发布的软件中的问题。So I set it up with that so it can send to email. That's how it gives me reports about outstanding issues and PRs. So it sends, um, JDX this email about the bug it found, and he was like, "Wait, this is the first time I've gotten a bug report in unreleased software." Because it had downloaded the source code to mise, saw that he had already fixed the bug, but that it would not fix the problem entirely in software they had not shipped yet.

他精准找到了问题，然后他说：“该死——我们连一个版本都还没发布，就收到 bug 报告了。”太棒了。简直令人难以置信，堪称 AGI 级别的震撼体验。而且你要是还记得，当时 AI 系统能不能很好地调试，这其实还是个悬而未决的问题。Pinpointed the problem, and he was like, "Damn it-I got a bug report before we even cut a release." That's amazing. That's amazingbelievable AGI levels of mind-blowing stuff. And that was actually, if you remember, that was an open question whether AI systems could debug well.

当时大概就是这么想的：嗯，当然，它们会写代码，但它们能发现问题吗？而它们在这方面真的特别厉害。这其实挺有意思的，因为我当时可能也站在同一边，对它能不能推理这些事情有点怀疑。Shopify 的首席技术官 Mikhail 就此做了一项科学研究。That was kinda the thought that, yeah, sure, they can write code, but can they find issues and They are so incredibly good at this, and this is actually interesting because I was on the perhaps same side of that, a little skeptical about can it reason about all these things. And Mikhail, who's the CTO at Shopify, ran a scientific study on this.

他们曾经……我想这大概是去年年底或今年年初的事。当时他让智能体回溯 Shopify 在生产环境中发生的所有事件，包括服务中断和其他问题，追查到引发这些问题的已合并 PR，并查明由人工审查的 PR 和由智能体审查的 PR，哪一类质量更高。结果真是出人意料——经过智能体审查的 PR 在生产环境中引发的问题少得多。而且当时用的还是六个月前的模型。如今，在我们从事的大多数领域里，智能体在找 bug 方面都要强得多，几乎可以说是百分之百。They hadAnd this was, I think, late last year or early this year, where he had agents go back through all the incidents, both outages and, and other problems that Shopify had had in production, trace that back to the PR that was merged, and find out whether PRs that had been reviewed by human or PRs that had been reviewed by agents were of higher quality. Well, lo and surprise-the PRs that have been reviewed by agents caused far fewer issues in production. And this was with models we had six months ago. At this point, 100% in the majority of domains we work in today, agents are better at finding bugs.

所以你现在整天都在运行智能体。你觉得哪款模型更胜一筹？目前谁领先？感觉局势一直在变。Sol、Fable、Grok 4.6、Gemini，还有中国的 OpenWay 模型。让我惊讶的是，你居然能一口气说出这么多不同的竞争者。So you now run agents all day. What stands out to you as the better model? Who's currently winning? It seems to be changing constantly. Sol, Fable, Grok 4.6, Gemini, the Chinese OpenWay models. What's amazing to me is that you could rattle off so many different contenders.

这个市场如此开放，格局确实会来回变化，我们也确实有真正的竞争，而且有这么多实验室能够达到前沿水平，或者接近前沿水平。顺便说一句，这很了不起。我至今还没有完全理解这一点。That this market is so wide open, that it does actually change back and forth, that we have real competition, that there are so many labs that are able to get either to the frontier or close to it. That, by the way, is remarkable. I still don't fully understand that.

不过，回答你的问题，目前综合来看最好的模型是 Fable。我认为第二好的模型是 Opus 5。但比 Opus 5 低一个档次的模型，也并非总是逊色，有时甚至更胜一筹。我马上就会谈到这一点。我会把 GPT Sol 评为非常优秀。But to answer your question, the best model in general right now is Fable. The second-best model, in my opinion, is Opus 5. But the tier just below Opus 5, and it's not even that they're always below, sometimes they're ahead. I'll get to that in a second. I would rank GPT Sol very good.

我几天前才开始测试 Grok 4.6。无意中，我搭建了一个很棒的测试：把这个 Python 库移植到 Rust。呃，你刚才看到的那个带有各种炫酷动画的屏幕保护程序？它就是由一个名为 Terminal Text Effects 的 Python 库驱动的。Grok 4.6 I just started testing a few days ago. I had this wonderful test that I've set up by accident where I translated this Python library into Rust. Uh, the screensaver you just saw with all the cool animation? That's powered by a Python library called Terminal Text Effects.

这是个非常棒的库。我们从 Omarchy 发布的第一天起就一直在用它。问题在于它是用 Python 编写的，所以启动时，尤其是在笔记本电脑上运行时，为了实现这些效果，它会占满 CPU，因此大约会消耗 30 瓦的电量，让风扇高速运转，还会耗尽电池电量。Really cool library. We've been using it since the first day of Omarchy. The problem with that is it's written in Python, so when it starts up, especially on a laptop, and it runs in Python, it uses all of your CPU to do these effects, and therefore, it means it uses about 30 watts of energy, and it spins up your fans, and it drains your battery.

在本地计算机上其实不太重要，但在笔记本电脑上就很重要。所以我就想：“你知道吗？这听起来像是 Rust 要解决的问题。”于是我先把这个挑战交给 Fable，只告诉它：“这是这个 Python 库的源代码，”也就是这个有一堆依赖之类的 TTE 库。“我想要一个没有依赖、可以单独运行的 Rust 版本。”对吧，Rust 就是干这个的。所以说到底，我就是想用 Rust 实现它。Doesn't really matter on a local computer, but it does matter on a laptop. So I thought, "Do you know what? This sounds like a problem for Rust." So first I gave Fable the challenge, and all I told it was, "Here's the source code for the Python library," this TTE library that had a bunch of dependencies and so forth. "I want a Rust version of this with no dependencies, a single executable." Like, that's what Rust does. So basically, I want it in Rust.

我希望它能做到像素级完美，逐帧分析，全面分析，不要停下来，直到完成。没错。这就是提示词。没错。I want it to be pixel perfect, frame by frame, do a full analysis, don't stop until you're finished. Yep. That was the prompt. Yep.

不骗你，不到45分钟，就好像是：“我是不是都听到了？我搞定了。我什么都检查过了。我把启动时间从86毫秒缩短到了2毫秒。我把执行速度提高了9.6倍，我想应该是这样。这个可执行文件只有3兆字节。你想运行一下吗？”I kid you not, in just under 45 minutes, it was like Am I heard all? I'm finished. I've checked everything. I have reduced the startup time from 86 milliseconds to two milliseconds. I have sped up the execution time by 9.6 times, I believe it was. The executable is three megabytes. Do you wanna run it?

太棒了。所以我运行它——天哪。我也不知道自己为什么会惊讶，因为我们早就知道，AI 挺擅长这种翻译工作。但让我震撼的是，我居然只用一次提示，就把一个我用了一年、别人用得更久的 Python 库完整翻译成了 Rust 可执行程序；我完全不懂 Rust，也根本没看过 Rust 代码，最后还做出了这个可执行程序。然后我马上就对智能体说：“太棒了。发布吧。”That's awesome. So I run it— Oh, man. and I don't know why I'm surprised, because this translation job is something we've known for a while that AI is pretty good at, but it was still staggering to me that I could one-shot a full translation of a Python library I had been using for a year, that others had been using for much longer, and turn it into a Rust executable without knowing any Rust, without looking at the Rust code at all, and produce this executable that I then told the agent right after, "This is great. Ship it."

它把它打包成了一个新软件包。它问我：“你想给它起什么名字？”“呃，就叫 TTFX 吧。我们新建一个 Git 仓库。”它就把 Git 仓库建好了。“再创建一个新软件包，为我们的构建系统构建软件包。”它也把这个弄好了。“把它推送出去吧。向 Omarchy 本身发起拉取请求，这样我们就能从 TTE（Python 实现）切换到 TTFX。”它把这一切都做完了，而我就坐在那里。再说一遍，我当时已经被智能体加速带来的效果震撼得晕头转向了，可还是不得不靠回椅背，心想：“这就是 AGI，对吧？AGI 看起来就是这样。”It packaged it up as a new package. It told me, "What do you want it to call?" "Uh, let's call it TTFX. Let's create a new Git repo." It sets up the Git repo. "Let's create a new package, build package for our build system." It puts that up. "Let's push it out. Let's open the pull request to the Omarchy itself so we switch around from TTE, the Python implementation, to TTFX." It does all of it, and I'm just sitting there. And again, I'm already at this point fully delirious with agent acceleration, and I still had to lean back and I go like, "This is AGI, isn't it? This is what AGI looks like.

如果我们有如果这些时刻一直都是这样，那这就是 AGI。现在，据我所知，你们也不只是在 Fable 上重复了同样的实验。If we haveIf these moments are just what it is all the time, this is AGI." Now, as I understand, you also repeated the same experiment not just with Fable.

代码之外的生活Life Beyond Code

我在所有模型上都做了。首先，我做了这件事。其实，有件挺有意思的事：我在进行到大约三分之二时用完了 Fable 的 token，它就自动切换到了 Opus 5，继续执行并完成了任务。我觉得它之所以能做到这一点，部分原因是 Fable 做的第一件事就是制定计划，而且计划非常详细。我完全没有审查这个计划。计划分成八个独立步骤，比如“在这里执行，在这里分析，在这里运行效果”，等等。I did it on all the models. First, I did itActually, funny thing. So I ran out of Fable tokens about two-thirds through, and it just automatically switched over to Opus 5 and kept going and finished the job. Part of the reason why I think it was able to do that was that the first thing Fable did was create a plan, and it was a really detailed plan. I think it had eight separate steps of, "Here you do it, and here, how you analyze it, and here you run the effects," and so on. I didn't review the plan at all.

我没有改计划。它只是把计划调整成了 Opus 可以接手的样子。然后我想：“嗯，如果 Opus 能完成这项工作，也许其他一些智能体也能完成。”所以我做的第一件事就是把它交给——我想我交给了 Sol。Sol 也完成了这项工作。它花的时间是两倍，所以我想大概用了一个半小时。但关键是，每个 token 的成本——我并不是按 token 付费的。我订阅的是 Claude Max，对吧？所以它是在订阅额度内完成的。它用光了我所有的 token，所以我不得不切换到 Opus 5。但如果我是按 token 付费的话，我想做完这整件事得花 550 美元。我当时有那么一瞬间想：“我靠，这也太划算了。”如果我得自己学好 Rust，才能做到这件事……I didn't change the plan. It just made the plan so Opus could take over. And then I thought, "Well, if Opus can finish the job, maybe some of the other agents could finish it, too." So the first thing I did was I gave it toI think I gave it to Sol. And Sol finished the job, too. It took twice as long, so it took, I think, about an hour and a half. But here's the kicker. The per token cost, I didn't pay per token. I have a max subscription to Claude, right? So it did it within the subscription. It used all my tokens, so I had to switch over to Opus 5. But if I had paid per token, it would've been 550 bucks, I think, to do the whole thing. And I thought for a second, "Holy shit. What a steal." If I personally had to learn Rust well enough to be able to do this

翻译这件事，我看着像是要花九个月的工作。我可以花500美元让人完成这项翻译，结果执行速度一下子提升了10倍。这太棒了，我绝对愿意为此付500美元。不过还得比一比。所以我把它交给了 Sol。计划相同。公平地说，我并没有让 Sol 制定计划，只是把 Fable 的计划拿给 Sol。Sol 花了一个半小时，我想大概用了价值46美元的 token，就重复完成了这项任务。做出了同样的结果。translation, I'm looking at a nine-month job here. I can pay 500 bucks to have this translation happen, and suddenly I get a 10x execution speed up. This is ama I would totally pay 500 bucks for this. But competition. So I give it to Sol. Same plan. To be fair, I didn't ask Sol to do the plan. I just took the Fable plan, gave it to Sol. Sol, in an hour and a half, and I think $46 worth of token, repeated the task. Did the same thing.

我当时就想：“哇，真是太厉害了。”然后我就贪心了。所以我问 GPT Luna——它也是 OpenAI 推出的一款便宜得离谱的模型——“你能做到吗？”完全不行。首先，它甚至都不愿意开始这项任务。我想是出了什么问题，我也不清楚。我记得大概是春天的时候，我们不再需要那些 /goal 之类的东西了。只要你告诉智能体不要停下来，它们就能自动循环着继续做下去，诸如此类。所以 Sol 能做到。Fable 也能做到。但 Luna 不行。所以我……我想我试了 12 条提示词，不断让它去做，最后总算让它启动了。它做的第一件事就是作弊。它首先……它跑到自己的目录之外，发现那里已经有另一个实现……And I thought, "Well, blimey, that's amazing." Then I got greedy. So I asked GPT Luna, which is this crazy cheap model that OpenAI has as well, "Can you do it?" Absolutely not. First of all, it didn't even wanna start the task. I think something happened I don't know. I think it was in the spring, where we didn't need these slash goal things anymore. The agents could just automatically keep going in a loop if you told it not to stop-and so forth. So Sol could do that. Fable could do that. But Luna couldn't. So I hadI think I did 12 prompts. Kept telling it to do it, and eventually I sorta got it started. The first thing it did was to cheat. So the first thing it, it looked outside its own directory, saw that there was already another imple-

实现，然后只是在那上面做了个简单封装，就说：“我搞定了。”真是笑死人了。但它没能完成，因为它只做了那么一两件事。不过我的意思是，好吧，它就是做不到。然后我把任务交给了 Grok-46。我之前稍微用过 Grok 45，当时想：“啊，虽然有别的模型也在尝试挺好的，但我大概不会用它吧”，因为感觉它落后得挺多。结果 Grok 46 他妈的把任务完成了。implementation, and just did a short wrapper around that and said, "I'm done." Hilarious. But it couldn't finish because it made just a couple thing. But I mean, okay, so it can't do that. Then I gave it to Grok-46. And I had used Grok 45 a little bit, and I thought like, "Ah, I mean, it's cool that there's others trying, but, like, I'm not gonna use it," because it felt quite far behind. Grok 46 fucking completes the task.

速度提升了 10 倍，可执行文件大小不变。按 token 算，费用大概是 55 美元，我记得是这样。简直不可思议。后来我也用 Kimi K3 重做了一遍，呃——花了好长时间。我不记得 Kimi 实际花了多久。然后我还先用 DeepSeek V4 Flash 做了一遍。Flash 和 Luna 一样失败了，没能做到。之后我用 Pro 做，Pro 也完成了任务。花了 2 小时 45 分钟，23 美元。10x speed up, same size executable. $55 Worth of per token cost, I think it was. Absolutely unbelievable. Then I repeated, too, with, uh, Kimi K3-which took forever. I forget how long Kimi actually spent on it. And then I also did it with DeepSeek V4 Flash first. And Flash failed the same way that Luna did. It couldn't do it. And then I did it with Pro, and Pro also completed the task. It took 2 hours 45, $23.

所以，我们现在的情况就是这样，对吧？比如说，Fable 显然是最好的。它速度最快，也是那个写出计划的模型，但要花 550 美元，而输出结果却一样。呃，其他的，Sol、Grok，成本差不多只有它的十分之一。DeepSeek 的成本只有二十分之一，不过得多等一会儿。简直不可思议，令人瞠目结舌。So here we are, right? Like, Fable, clearly the best. It was the fastest. It was the one that wrote the plan, but 550 bucks, and the output the same. Uh, the others, Sol, Grok, about the same 1/10 the cost. DeepSeek, 1/20 the cost, but you have to wait a little longer. Absolutely gobsmackingly incredible.

顺便说一下，我让 Fable 完成了第一个任务，然后 Opus 也完成了。那是第一次一口气完成的，对吧？速度快了 10 倍。我做了两轮自动研究——不过现在都算不上自动研究了。你不用输入斜杠命令，只要告诉它一直继续，直到你叫它停下来。And now, by the way, by the way, so I had Fable finish the first job, and then Opus finished it. That was the first one shot, right? It's 10 times faster. I did two auto research runs, which isn't even auto research anymore. You don't have to do the slash. You just tell it to keep going until you tell it to stop.

最终，我想我们的执行速度相比原来提升了46倍。太不可思议了。简直不可思议。真是太不可思议了。It ended upI think we ended up with a 46 time execution improvement over the original. It's incredible. Absolutely incredible. It's just incredible.

嗯，我确实是这么觉得，你知道，在规划方面，我觉得没有什么能比得上 Fable。所以我通常用 Fable 来做规划和审查，然后用别的工具来实现，比如 Opus 5。这样真的很不错。这套搭配真的很好用，能让你不至于太快用完 token。Um, I do, you know, I just don't think there's anything that compares to Fable in terms of planning. So I usually do Fable for planning and for reviewing, and then something else for implementation, like Opus 5. And it's really nice. It's a, it's a really nice setup that allows you to not run out of tokens too much.

我的发现很有意思，因为在我看来，Fable 目前是最好的模型，但它也会犯错。要获得最好的软件，最好的办法其实是用两个来源不同的模型——我是说，它们不是什么中游模型，全都是前沿模型。比如用 Opus 5 和 Codex，让一个检查另一个的成果。这就是我现在的标准操作流程。What I found, it's really interesting because Fable is, in my opinion, the best model right now, but it also makes mistakes. And the best way to get the best software, I would actually rather have two differently sourced sort ofI mean, they're not mid-tier, they're all frontier. But have, let's say Opus 5 and Codex-and have one check the other's job. This is my standard operating procedure now.

我会让 Opus 或 Fable 来做这项工作，然后总是用 Codex xHigh 来收尾并进行审查。我也开始用 Grok 试试，它也相当不错，而且总能发现问题。这就是我让代理在自己的机器上干活时的工作流程，然后我会推送到 GitHub。还有，Copilot，我不是开玩笑，它真的变好用了。Copilot 一直能发现确实存在的问题，这也大大提升了效率，因为最初开始做这件事的那个版本的 Copilot 简直弱智，只会不停地标记一些毫无道理的问题。I'll have Opus or Fable do the work, and then I always end it, review with Codex xHigh. And I've also started using Grok just to test it out, and it's also quite good. And it keeps finding stuff. And then that's my workflow when I'm having my agents on my own machine do it, and then I push to GitHub. And then Copilot, I kid you not, has actually gotten good. Copilot keeps finding stuff that's legitimately broken, which is also incredible acceleration because the first version of Copilot that started doing this was literally retarded. It would just constantly flag things that were nonsense.

每次你推送代码时，它都会一遍又一遍地标记同一个问题。真的很烦人，所以我觉得很多人最后都把它关掉了。如果你也关了，就应该重新打开，因为它其实相当不错，会不断发现问题。然后，如果你把这一点也考虑进去，我们就不该感到意外。有什么好惊讶的？即使你是个优秀的程序员，完成一项工作后，如果请一位同样优秀的同行来审查，你最后得到的代码也会更好。得到更好的代码，这当然是意料之中的事。所以要把这一步纳入你的工作流程。It would constantly flag the same problem over and over again as you would push. It was really annoying, so I think a lot of people actually ended up turning that off. And if they did, they should turn it back on because it's actually quite good. Keeps finding things. And if you then take that, and we shouldn't be surprised. Why are we surprised? Even if you're a good programmer, if you finish a job and you ask your also very good peer to review it, you're gonna end up with better code. Of course you're gonna end up with better code. So build that into your process.

选择一个代理来使用。我主要一直在用 Claude，这其实挺有意思的，因为我对 Anthropic 还有一些其他顾虑。不过我一直用 Claude 的原因是，在我看来，他们确实有最好的 harness。它之所以是最好的 harness，其中一个原因是它支持多代理并行运行。如果你想同时运行多个代理，可以在会话中按左箭头键，然后就会返回 Agent View（代理视图）。在这里，你可以再选一个代理。Pick one of the agents to drive with. I've mainly been driving with Claude, which is actually interesting because I have some other reservations about Anthropic. But the reason I'm sticking with Claude is, in my opinion, they actually have the best harness. And one of the reasons it's the best harness is it's multi-agent running. So if you wanna run multiple agents at the same time, you can do arrow left when you're inside a session, then it goes back to Agent View. And here in Agent View, you can pick up another agent.

所以，如果你想同时开好几个线程——Claude Code 确实是最顺手的方案。他们也一直领先那么一点点，这大概也不该让人意外。我的意思是，Boris 是参与开发它的人之一，也是最早加入的，基本上就是他想出了这个东西。有意思的是，这种优势一直保持了下来。我也经常用 OpenCode。So if you wanna do this thing where you have multiple threads going on-the Claude Code is just the nicest setup. They also just, they keep being a little further ahead, which probably shouldn't be surprising. I mean, Boris is one of the guys that's working on that, he was the first one and basically came up with the thing. It's just interesting that that has been an enduring advantage. I've also used OpenCode a lot.

我觉得 OpenCode 很棒。我主要把它用作运行所有开源模型的主力工具，比如 Kimi K3 等等。而且我不是在中国的服务器上进行推理，而是在 Fireworks 上推理——这是一项很不错的服务，可以按 token 付费；如果你用的是这些开放权重模型，按 token 计费也不算贵。I think OpenCode is great. I use OpenCode mainly as my main harness for all the open models, so Kimi K3 and so forth. And I inference not on the Chinese servers. So I inference on Fireworks-which is a really nice service where you can just pay by the token, and if you're using these open weight models, they're not that expensive by token.

所以这是个很棒的做法。不过我觉得我应该不会用——嗯，也许会吧。但如果……订阅 Claude 确实很划算，简直划算得离谱。是啊，我知道。而且我其实有四个。我今天早上刚注册了第二个——因为我受时差影响，凌晨 4 点就醒了，马上开始用智能体干活，现在距离 Fable 的使用限额重置还有三天，而我的令牌已经用完了。So that's a great way to do that. But I don't think I would be usingWell, maybe I would. But ifUsing Claude with a subscription does feel like a bargain, like a crazy bargain. Yeah, I knew. And I actually have four. I just signed up for my second one this morning-because I got up at 4:00 with jet lag, and I started working with the agents right away, and now I'm three days away from limits resetting on Fable, and I ran out of tokens.

所以他们真的应该——他们——我是说，我不……为什么这事这么复杂？不能直接叠加一个订阅吗？为什么我需要登录好几次？而且显然你们还得开发某种工具。是的，我也这么做了。So and they should really— they— I mean, I don'tWhy is that so complicated? Can't you just stack one subscription? Why do I need to log in multiple times? And obviously you'll have to develop some kind of tooling Yes, I did that too.

从一个切换到另一个。然后，哦，顺便说一下，我们正在把这个功能集成到 Omarchy 里。所以 Omarchy 的下一个版本将支持多订阅。我真希望 Labs 能直接让你最多买 100 次。不过这对我来说其实挺有意思的，因为……用 Grok 46 再用 Claude Code 对我来说很有挑战性，因为 Grok 实在太快了。to move from one-to the other. And then Oh, we're building that into Omarchy, by the way. So the next version of Omarchy is gonna ship with multi-sub support. I wish that the labs would just make you buy a max 100 times. It's kind of actually fascinating though for me because there'sIt's very challenging for me to use Grok 46 and then a Claude Code because Grok is so fast.

是的。关键就在这里。Grok 的优势是，它的快速模式比其他产品的常规模式更便宜。而且你用 Grok 46 的快速模式用过之后，会有点上瘾，因为它几乎能让你进入一种单线程模式——智能体可以跟上你的节奏。Yes. That's actually the deal. The deal with Grok is that their fast mode is cheaper than the regular mode on the others. And when you've used Grok 46 on fast, it's kind of addictive 'cause it almost gets you to this single thread mode-where the agent is able to keep up with you.

是啊，但我不知道该怎么做，我不行。一旦我习惯了 Claude Code，呃，我就受不了 Grok 的速度了，因为我现在已经习惯了多任务处理。所以我又回到了这种焦虑模式，呃……是啊。不，我同意。切换。所以我想，这一切都是一个学习过程，让我们了解编程实际上应该是什么样子。Yeah, but I don't know howI can'tOnce I get used to Claude Code, uh, I can't handle the speed of Grok 'cause I'm used to now multitasking. And so now I'm back in this-anxious mode of, uh Yeah. No, I agree. switching. So I mean, all of this is a learning a learning process of what programming actually is supposed to look like.

顺便说一下，我不确定这些智能体运行框架最终会是什么样，其中一个原因是我们在 Base Camp 开始尝试一件事：把智能体放进 Base Camp，把它们当作同事。是啊。太棒了。然后我们给它们分配任务。太棒了。By the way, one of the reasons why I'm not sure what the final form of these harnesses is gonna take, because one of the things we've started experimenting with at Base Camp is that we put the agents inside of Base Camp, and we treat them as coworkers. Yeah. That's awesome. And then we assign them tasks That's awesome.

在 Basecamp 里，他们会处理 Basecamp 中的一项待办任务，或者处理一张卡片上的工作。事实证明，针对异步沟通进行优化的协作工具，实际上才是合适的形式；而这些运行环境则更像聊天工具。聊天——我是说，它原本就是这类工具最初采用的形式——并不合适，因为你会坐在那里等着。它会让你忍不住干等着；而使用 Basecamp 这类工具时，你可以直接把一项待办任务交给代理，因此也不会指望它立刻回复。inside of Base Camp, so they will do work on a to-do in Base Camp, or they'll work, do work on a card. And it turns out that a collaboration tool that's optimized for asynchronous communication is actually the right format versus these harnesses are a little more like chat. And chat, which was, I mean, the original format for these things, is not the right thing because you're sitting around waiting. It entices you to sit around and wait, versus when you're dealing with something like Base Camp and you can just give an agent a to-do item, you don't expect to hear back immediately.

所以我也不知道最终会是什么形态，但我一直在用所有这些 harness。我会在 Herdr 里用它们，而 Herdr 有多个窗格。所以我经常在上面运行 Claude，在下面运行 Codex，可能还会配置一个 OpenCode。不过我得说，就在最近我发现，人在环路中才是这里的瓶颈。So I don't know what the final form is gonna take, but I've been using all of the harnesses. So I use them inside of Herdr, and Herdr has panes. So oftentimes I'll run Claude up top, and then I'll run Codex down below, and then maybe I also have an OpenCode set up. But I will say just very recently, I found that the human in the loop is the limit here.

所以我开始搭建更多自动化系统了。我一直在开发一个 Omarchy 机器人，让它能更自主地为 Omarchy 开发。它只是一个定期运行的流程，会处理待办事项、PR 和 issue，然后通过 Hey CLI 给我发邮件。之后我就会收到这样一封邮件：“这里有 12 个 PR，要么已经可以合并了，要么我觉得你应该关掉。”然后我再做最后的决定。So I've started setting up more automated systems. I've been building an Omarchy bot that can do more autonomous development on Omarchy that is just On a regular schedule process, all depending to do or PRs and issues, and then send me an email using the Hey CLI, and then I just get this email. Here's 12 PRs that are either ready to go or I think you should close. And then I just make the final determination there.

你觉得同时处理多项任务、在任务之间切换，会让你精神上筋疲力尽吗？会，但那是一种令人兴奋的筋疲力尽。比如，我一直很喜欢赛车的一点就是：我会从车里踉踉跄跄地爬出来，累得彻底瘫倒，连头都快抬不起来，然后躺在车库地板上，心想：“我操，我还活着。”Do you find the multitasks, the task switching mentally exhausting? Yes, but in an exhilarating way. Like, one of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I'd lay down on the garage floor and just think, "Holy fuck, I'm alive."

这就是我现在有时和智能体打交道时感受到的那种疲惫，精神上的疲惫。顺便问一下，你比赛的时候，嗯，疲惫感来自哪里？是身体上的。就是，我想柔术也是一样的，对吧？感到筋疲力尽其实还挺满足的，因为那感觉就像你真的全力以赴了。That's the kind of exhaustion, mental exhaustion I'm feeling at moments with the agents right now. By the way, when you're racing, where, what's the source of the exhaustion? Like It's physical. It's justI mean, I bet it's the same thing with jujitsu, right? Like, it's actually satisfying to feel exhausted. It feels like you've applied yourself.

我觉得这和你可能从智能体那里感受到的精神疲惫有关。你也会因为赛车而精神疲惫吗？会。如果你在艰难的条件下驾驶，尤其是在雨中开车，就得一直在刀锋边缘掌控车辆。不过大多数时候，我只是享受身体上的疲惫。And I feel that with the mental exhaustion you can get from agents. Are you also mentally drained from racing? Yes. If you drive in difficult conditions, especially if you drive in the rain, where you're constantly managing the thing right at the knife's edge. But most of the time, I just enjoyed the physical exhaustion.

而且在这里，随着多任务之间来回切换，我确实发现自己会特别疲惫，我想这是因为我想得太多了。因为你基本上……没错，正是如此。根本没有那种被动、低耗能的思考。And here, with the multitask switching, I do find that, like, I get really exhausted, and I think it's because I'm thinking a lot. 'Cause, like, you're basically That's exactly it. there's no, like passive low energy thinking.

不。你会觉得，根本不能松懈。问题是，根本不能松懈。No. You're like There's no coasting. problem. There's no coasting.

解决一个问题，接着下一个问题，再解决问题，你就会一直在思考。这很有意思。赛车其实也很像。有些赛道，比如勒芒赛道，会有时间让你放松。穆桑直道就很长。你开得很快，但车是直线行驶的，所以可以喘口气。而有些赛道则全程都得全力以赴，完全没有片刻能放松。每跑一小时后，你从赛车里出来时都会踉踉跄跄，而且疲惫的程度大不相同。我发现智能体也是这样：当你以人类所能承受的最大强度运行时——你就一直在过弯。Solve problem, next problem, solve problem, and you're really thinking. It's funny. It's actually very similar with racing. There's some tracks, like Le Mans, where you get time to relax. There's the Mulsanne straights where it's kinda long. You're going fast, but in a straight line, you can take a breath. And then there are other tracks where it's just coming full on all the time, and you don't have any moment to relax, and you stumble out of the car after an hour in each, and it's very different how exhausted you are. And this is exactly what I'm finding with the agents too, that when you're running at max human capacity-you're just constantly in a corner.

你觉得人们有精疲力竭的风险吗？我觉得我们现在所处的这个阶段终将过去。那种需求——这不是要一直盯着它们，但与智能体持续互动的情况会逐渐消退。从我在 Omarchy 上看到的情况来看，我觉得我们可以把大量系统开发和调试工作自动化——做到我每天只需审阅一次邮件，然后每天做一次决定。行不行、继续不继续、纳入还是排除，诸如此类。我们还没做到那一步，但我觉得终究会实现。Do you think people are in danger of burnout? I think the moment we're in right now is gonna pass. That this need toIt's not a babysitting motion, but constant interaction with the agents is gonna fade. From what I've seen on Omarchy, I think we can automate a ton of the development and debugging of the system-to the point where I can just review that email once a day, and then make the decisions once a day. Yep, goes, no, goes, in, out, and whatever. We're not there yet, but I think we're gonna get there.

嗯，你能不能多少共情一下这种感觉？比如说，一个身处旧金山的年轻人，周围的人全都不睡觉，着了迷似的，没日没夜地编程。还有一种感觉，好像 AGI 随时就要来了。每个人都认识那么一个人，因为卖掉自己的初创公司而赚了几百万美元。所以就会有种感觉，好像你不该睡觉。Well, can you sort of, like, empathize with the feeling that, say, a young person sitting in San Francisco, everybody around them is not sleeping. They're obsessed. They're programming nonstop. And there's this kinda sense, that AGI is gonna be here any minute. There's, everybody knows somebody who's made millions of dollars because they sold a startup. And so there's a kinda feeling like you shouldn't be sleeping.

你应该一直在管理智能体、编程、构建……而且，这感觉就像一个我们日后回望时会记得的时刻。这是一个新范式的诞生。事情总是乱糟糟的，总是乱糟糟的，也总是让人筋疲力尽。除此之外别无他法。顺便说一句，旧金山不一直都是这样吗？You should be constantly managing agents and programming and building and, and that feels like a moment in time we'll look back at. It's the birth of a new paradigm. It's always messy. It's always messy. It's always exhausting. There's no other way around that. And by the way, hasn't San Francisco always been like this?

我记得互联网泡沫繁荣的那些年，大家都一个样；后来一切都转向移动端，而在那之前则是淘金热。所以我觉得，那大概就是——旧金山。它吸引着那类人——梦想家，他们会想：“我没时间睡觉。”一般来说，我没走过那条路，但我承认，过去三个月比我过去五年做过的任何其他项目都更让人筋疲力尽；自 Hey 上线以来，这是我们经历的最后一次如此疯狂、令人精疲力竭的发布。I remember the dotcom boom years, and everyone was just the same, and then it was all mobile, and before that it was the gold rush. So I think that's probably-just San Francisco. It attracts-the kind of individuals The dreamerswho would, who would think, "I don't have time to sleep." I've not been on that track, generally speaking, but I will admit that the last three months have felt more exhausting than any other project I've done in the last five years, since the Hey launch. That was the last time we had a crazy exhausting launch.

你觉得你能一直以这个速度干下去吗？不，绝对不行，不行。这根本不可持续。好吧。不过我也能看到隧道尽头的曙光。因为自动化这件事——顺便说一句，大家都在做。真是太好笑了。你看，大家都在搭建自己的小型 Gas Town、自己的智能体协作系统和配置。这些问题最终都会解决的。我们不可能人人都得自己搭一套协调框架。当然不可能。事实上，我有点惊讶，这么久过去了，大型实验室还没有更多地把这类东西吸收过去。你会以为他们早就把这些东西内置进去了。Do you think you can keep going at this pace? No, no, no, no, no. This is not sustainable at all. Okay. But I also, I can see the end of the tunnel. Because the automation, which by the way, everyone is building. This is so hilarious. Like, everyone is building their little gas town, their little agent coordination, their setup. This is all gonna be solved. We're not all gonna have to build our own coordination harnesses. Of course we're not. And in fact, I'm a little surprised that it's gone this long, that there's not more of it has been sucked up by the major labs. You'd think that they'd just built this stuff in.

但其中一部分也只是因为这就是一个新领域初现时的样子。我记得有那么一阵子，JavaScript 仿佛刚意识到自己的力量，差不多每五分钟就会冒出一个新的 JavaScript 框架，对吧？变化非常频繁。这就是新范式刚出现时会发生的事。所以我觉得这很正常，也认为这种状况会逐渐稳定下来，而且我已经能看到隧道尽头的光了。所以我不介意冲刺一阵。事实上，现在我还挺欢迎这种节奏的。我喜欢这样一种想法：大多数时候都很平静，但偶尔你得爬一座山。But some of it is also this is what a new domain looks like. I remember for a hot moment when JavaScript kind of came to realize its own power, and there was basically a new JavaScript framework every five minutes, right? Like, a lot of churn. This is what happens at the advent of a new paradigm. So I think it's natural, and I think it's gonna settle down, and I can already see the light at the end of the tunnel. So I don't mind a sprint. In fact, I welcome it now. I like this notion that most time is calm, but then occasionally you gotta climb a mountain.

如果回头看看一年前的 DHH，你会给那时候的他什么建议？我可不想剧透。好吧。这一路简直像一部惊险大片。我是说，要是你把这一切写成剧本，我肯定会说：“这也太离谱了吧，别闹了。简直难以置信。”对吧？我可不想提前知道任何事。这场过山车般的旅程，以及一路加速的过程，都是所有人实时经历的，没人事先知道，对吧？有些人的预感比别人稍微准一点，但没人知道事情会怎么发展，更没人知道它会以多快的速度起飞。If we look back to the DHH a year ago, what advice would you give to that guy? I wouldn't wanna spoil it. Okay. What a-thriller that this has been. I mean, if you would've scripted this, I'd be like, "This is so far-fetched. Get out of here. Unbelievable," right? I wouldn't wanna know anything. The fact that this rollercoaster and this acceleration has been absorbed in real time by everyone, no one knew, right? Like, some had premonitions that were a little better than others, but no one knew, not exactly the way-it was gonna go and how fast it was gonna take off.

我是说，这简直是毕生难遇的一场演出。我是说，“mean cinema”这个说法绝对适用于这一刻。是啊，太不可思议了。呃，话虽如此，你觉得一年后的 DHH 会是什么样子？I mean, it's the show of a lifetime. I mean, the mean cinema-absolutely applies Yeah, it's incredible. to this moment. Uh, that said, what do you think DHH from a year from now will be like?

我是说，可能会有哪些版本？比如，我们所有的梦想都要成真了。这就是 AI 极端乐观派的丰裕论点：一旦埃隆的机器人拥有我在某些开发工作中体验到的那种智能水平和通用人工智能（AGI），世界就会变得面目全非，彻底超乎想象。I mean, what are the possible versions? That all our dreams are coming true. Like, this is the AI maximalist abundance argument. That once Elon's robots have the level of intelligence and AGI that I'm experiencing on some of this development stuff, the world is gonna be so unrecognizably different that we can't even imagine it.

现在，我完全不会花时间去想这件事，因为我觉得那会让人陷入 AI 精神错乱。所以我只是全身心沉浸在当下，尽可能地享受这一刻，尽情玩乐。尽情玩乐。Now, I don't spend any time thinking about that because I think that is the way to the AI psychosis. So therefore, I just immerse myself in the moment and get absolutely the maximum out of it and Just have fun. Just have fun.

我的意思是，我理解为什么人们会觉得这让人筋疲力尽。光是跟上变化就够呛。甚至都还没用上智能体，只是……比如说，一直在问：“最新的模型是什么？我们现在用的是什么工具？是 TMox 吗？是 Herder 吗？还是都不是？是智能体吗？”随便吧。我理解，但我也还是觉得，我们应该感到无比幸运。你正活在这样一个时代：几十年的变化，几周之内就发生了。I mean, I get it why people are finding this exhausting. Just keeping up. Not even using agents, just, like, being like, "What's the latest model? What did, what tool are we using now? Is it TMox? Is it a Herder? Is it none of it? Is it agents?" Whatever. I get it, but I also again think we should be so blessed. You are alive in this moment where decades are happening-in weeks.

呃，我先去趟洗手间，很快回来。最近我一直在用 Higgsfield 生成很多视频，所以他们就成了赞助商。我做了一个赛车视频，想听听你的看法。哦，是吗？让我看看。让我看看。Um, quick bathroom break. I've been generating a lot of video recently with Higgsfield, and so they, they became a sponsor. Created a racing video. Wanted to get your opinion on it. Oh, yeah? Oh, let me see. Let me see.

看看，呃，如果他们像电影里那样在直道上降档，我就要指出来了。那简直糟透了。让我看看。对，看看是不是……哦，这是个真实片段——这是完全由 AI 生成的。所以一开始它就说：“等等，什么？这是 AI？”To see, um If they downshift on a straight like they do in the movies, I'll call it out. That is the worst. Let me see. Yeah, see if Oh, that's a real clipthis is fully AI generated. So first it goes Wait, what? This is AI?

没错。靠，那是我的西装。那是我的车。永不眠的街道上，绿灯亮了。我的天。录段音频？你开什么玩笑？Yep. Shit, that's my suit. That's my car. Lights go green on a street that never sleeps. Oh, my God. Do an audio Are you kidding me?

但他们一直没来。这样好吗？我遇到了很糟糕的情况。我的意思是，太疯狂了。你真的得注意到那个……就像，那辆车没开车灯，另一辆开着。而那看起来像是六十岁的我。但是天哪，那……哇，太疯狂了。But they never came. Is it good? I got a bad case. I mean, it's crazy. You really have to notice in theLike, that car didn't have headlights on and the other one did. And that looked like a 60-year-old version of me. But holy crap, theWow, that was crazy.

所以这和编程有相似之处，因为如果你只是直接生成视频，不让人参与其中，就会出现很多奇怪的瑕疵，诸如此类，而且你其实没法真正做到……所以他们就这么做了。我强烈建议大家去看看 Higgsfield 的 YouTube 频道。他们有完整的 90 分钟原创电影。而且，我简直移不开眼。真的很酷。因为以前这类东西就只是让人觉得像预告片。So there's parallels here to programming because if you do just straight video generation with no human in the loop-you get a lot of weird artifacts-and so on, and you can't really doSo they do and I highly recommend people go to the Higgsfield YouTube. They have full 90-minute original movies. And, like, I can't look away. It's really cool. 'Cause it used to be that it's just, like, something that just feels like trailers.

像是某种东西的广告。对，对。这其实是在讲故事，比如人们的面孔，他们在交谈，你就会被吸引进去。这和编程所在的领域不太一样。所以问题是，如何将人类融入电影制作流程中？因此，你必须创造这些人物，而且他们必须始终保持一致。Like advertisements for something. Yes, yes. This is actually telling stories, like, people's faces and they're talking and you're like, you're drawn in. It's not quite where programming is. And so the question is how do you integrate the human into the loop of the filmmaking process? So you have to create the people, and they're-they have to be kept consistent.

然后，对于那些在创作过程中用来输入素材的图像，你得通过提示词来修正那些看起来不太对劲的地方。因为从图像生成视频时，那些不太对劲的东西会被放大，对吧？And then for the images that are kinda like feeding the thing in the creation process, you have to correct through prompting things that don't feel right. Because when you go from image to video, the stuff that doesn't feel right will be It's gonna be zoomed up, right?

那才是真正能创造出……呃，非现实内容的东西。我想问你的是，比如说，你觉得在编程之外，能不能把编程中的经验运用到视频创作和艺术创作中？这是个好问题，因为我认为，好的艺术和好的软件很大程度上依赖同一件事：要有愿景，要对自己想创作的东西有一个连贯的构想。That's the stuff that's-going to really create, uh-the non-realistic stuff. The questions I had for you is, like, do you think outside of programming, can you apply lessons from programming to video creation, to art? It's a good question because I think good art is very dependent on the same thing that good software is depending on: having a vision, having a cohesive idea of what you wanna create.

它有什么不同？它有什么新意？它会如何吸引人们？但我不确定创作直觉能不能同样好地迁移过去。嗯，我不知道自己是否有足够的创意洞见，能想出一些好的视频提示词，创作出引人入胜的内容。不过挺有意思的是，我其实在 TikTok 上关注过一个人，我想想，他好像叫什么 Goblin……How is it different? How is it novel? How is it going to appeal to people? But I'm not sure that the creative instincts transfer quite as well. Um, I don't know that I would have the creative insights to come up with good video prompts that would create compelling content. But it's funny because I have actually, on TikTok, there's this guy, I'm trying to remember, Goblin something.

这就创造出了这些作品。它们是短片，但不算特别短，大概有几分钟，讲述的都是非常有趣的科幻小故事。我觉得那个人现在其实正在制作一部完整长度的影片。嗯，我觉得这就是一个资源充沛的时刻。到处都有具备这种愿景的创意人士，尤其是在电影这样的领域。以前，拍一部科幻电影之类的作品，我不知道，可能需要两亿美元的预算。现在有了 AI，只要你有合适的构想，甚至在自己的卧室里就能拍出来。其实，这样的故事在其他领域已经讲过很多次了。过去，如果你想录制一张录音室专辑，那你就需要一间录音室，还得预约。现在你可以在家里用自己的……That creates theseThey are shorts, but not super short, maybe a couple minutes, of really interesting sci-fi vignettes. And I think the guy is actually working on a feature-length video right now. Um, and I think that this is one of those abundance moments. There are creative people with that vision all over the place, especially in a genre like film, where before it required a $200 million budget to create, I don't know, a sci-fi movie. Now suddenly, with AI, if you have the right vision for it, you can do that in your bedroom. Now, that story's been told quite a few times in other domains. It used to be true that if you wanted to record a studio album, well, you needed a studio, and you needed to book that. And now you can record at home on your

笔记本电脑，而且你可以做很多这类事情，对吧？所以，我们已经经历了这样一个民主化进程。laptop, and you can do a lot of these things, right? So we've had this democratization process happen

结语反思Closing Reflections

其他很多领域都已经如此了，但电影似乎是最后几个领域之一。而且它最让我和很多人觉得别扭，对吧？就像，哦，我超级兴奋，因为我觉得……我是说，你知道，现在产出的垃圾内容实在太多了。这跟“劣质内容”是一个道理，对吧？所以之前有那么一阵子，人们担心编程领域会充斥着劣质内容，我就跟他们说：“你们见过人类产出的劣质内容吗？也挺糟糕的。”我觉得说到制片厂的娱乐作品，门槛其实挺低的，对吧？with plenty of other domains, but film seems to be one of the last ones. And it's the one that makes, like, me and a lot of people feel weird, right? Like Oh, I'm super excited 'cause I think it's I mean, you There's so much garbage being produced right now. It's the same argument with the slob, right? So people for a second were worried about slob in programming, and I was telling them, like, "Have you seen the human slob? It's also pretty bad." And I think if it comes to studio entertainment, I mean, the bar is pretty low, right?

就像过去五年左右，我一直特别想看的好电影，数量其实并不算多。是啊，视频模型就是……它们已经能够生成极其逼真的面部表情了。我是说，我觉得这或许会改变电影的本质——我想，我希望电子游戏和电影能在某种程度上融合，让电影变得可以互动。就像可塑的操作系统、可塑的叙事、可塑的娱乐那样。天哪，《权力的游戏》——要是我们能直接忘掉最后四集那些烂东西，然后让 AI 想出……我不知道，也许一百种不同的版本，再让别人去看其中一种呢？Like, the number of great movies I've been dying to see over the past, say, five years, not been a particularly high number. Yeah, the video models are just, they're able to create incredibly realistic facial expressions. I mean, it just might change the nature of film I think they're— I guess my hope would be that video games and film kind of merge, and that film can become interactive Like the malleable operating system, having the malleable narrative, having malleable entertainment, that man, Game of Thrones, what if we could just forget the last four episodes of slob that was produced-and then AI-comes up with-I don't know-maybe 100 different variations, and someone else watches that,

而我得到的是那个真正以恰当方式为这部剧收尾的版本。没错。我有种感觉，单个创作者不会创作那些……而是会给《权力的游戏》写一个不同的结局。哦，当然。对吧？再说，这也更能说明人类有多糟糕。那简直是个糟糕透顶的结局，给也许是电影史上最伟大的作品之一——我本来想这么说，不过应该是电视剧史上最伟大的作品之一，对吧？and I get the version that actually finishes off that show in a way that's fitting. Yeah. Something tells me an individual creator would not create those la would create a different ending for Game of Thrones. Oh, for sure. Right? And more just to make the argument that talk about human slob. That was an absolute atrocious ending to perhaps one of the greatest pieces of, Movie history, I was about to say, but, um, series history, right?

它真的很棒，而且实际上有力地说明了为什么你需要那种强大的愿景。那些剧集统筹一旦不得不在没有剧本的情况下创作，事情就脱轨了。你觉得……你提到了 AGI。你觉得我们真的实现 AGI 了吗？It was so good, and it was actually a compelling argument for the fact that you need that strong vision. And as soon as those showrunners had to go without a script, it went off the rails. Do you thinkYou've mentioned AGI. Do you think we've actually achieved AGI?

不，不是说它已经体现在所有事情中的那种广义定义。但我有没有在这些闪光时刻中看到通用人工智能？当然有。尤其是过去三个月里，我看到一些情况时会想：“通用人工智能还能表现得跟这有什么不同？”对。No, not in the general definition that it's in all the things. But have I seen AGI in these glimmers? Absolutely. Especially over the last three months, I've seen things where I was thinking to myself, like, "How would AGI look different from this?" Right.

还能有什么呢？我的意思是，在细节上我也许会挑挑刺，但从整体来看，我已经见过它能够完成这些长程任务，并协调其中的多个方面。我们早已远远超越了那个早期阶段——那时我还得告诉它：“去做这个，把那个打包。”现在，它能根据这些模糊的指示完成整个任务。这感觉非常像通用人工智能，而这一刻如此令人振奋，正是因为你能捕捉到它初现的光芒。What, what more could there be? And I mean, I can quibble at the margins, but on the big picture, I've seen it able to do these long run tasks and coordinate these multiple aspects of it that we're so far beyond that early moment where I'm telling it, "Go do this, package that." And now it can carry out a whole task from these vague instructions. That feels very AGI-like, and that's what's so inspiring about the moment because you catch these glimmers.

然后你就会想：“如果一切都是那样呢？”编程不基本上就是解锁一切吗？这样你就可以写一个程序，让它生成一个能做一切的程序。所以，所以这就是——我现在正处于那个元阶段。我正在构建一个 Amabot 系统，用来管理 Omarchy 的开发，而我正在用 AI 来构建这个机器人。And then you go, "What if everything was like that?" Doesn't programming basically unlock the everything? So you can write a pro like it can generate the program that does the everything. So, so this isI'm in that meta phase right now. So I'm building this Amabot system that's managing the development of Omarchy, and I'm using AI to build the bot.

而且我看到那个反复循环的过程：我一开始说的是“这就是我想要的。我希望你能有这些彼此隔离的 VM 工作进程，等等”，然后它就可以自行迭代。接着它开始运行，发现自己的失败之处，并不断优化。这个系统里有很多设计决策，尤其是 Amabot 的设计，大多都是 AI 主导的。我只有一些模糊的想法，知道自己想要什么。我想采用一种“大脑与双手”的模式，让模型从代码实际执行的地方运行——这其实是个非常有意思的模式。再说一次，是 Toby 提醒了我这一点：你有一个运行模型的协调器，但它操控的是一个安全的 VM；你从拉取请求、问题或其他地方下载的任何不可信代码……And I'm seeing that recurrent loop where I started it on, like, "This is what I want. I want you to be able to have these isolated VM workers and so forth," and then it can do the self iteration. Then it starts running it. It starts noticing its failures. It starts optimizing it. And a lot of that system, Amabot in particular, AI has driven the majority of the design decisions. Like, I had some vague ideas of where I wanted. I wanted to use this brains and hands pattern where the model is running from where the code is executing-which is actually a really interesting pattern. Again, Toby alerted me to that, where you have a coordinator that runs the model-but it's manipulating a safe VM where any untrusted code you're pulling down from pull requests or issues or whatever

无法污染模型。即便在那个循环中，我也不断看到它自我纠正、发现漏洞。它会说：“哦，我刚才确实从一次测试运行中获取了一些反馈。如果一个狡猾的攻击者把恶意载荷嵌入测试运行的响应中，那就可能污染某些东西。我把它当成了可靠信息。看来我得开始把它视为外部数据。”然后你就会觉得，这简直……我明白为什么旧金山如此痴迷于快速起飞——显然他们已经见过这种情况一百多次了。他们在现在正在训练的所有模型上都见过这种情况，而我们也不断看到一些这样的苗头，比如 Hugging Face 的安全漏洞事件，当时 OpenAI 正在训练这个模型，而……can't contaminate the model. And even in that loop, I keep seeing it catch itself, spotting vulnerabilities, where it's like, "Oh, I actually just took some feedback from a test run. If a clever attacker had embedded a malicious payload in the response of the test run, that could have polluted something. I took it for good thing. I better start treating that as as outside data." And you just go like, it is justI get why San Francisco is so obsessed with fast takeoff-because clearly they've seen this 100 times-more. They've seen it with all the models that are in-training now, and we keep getting these little glimpses, like the security breach with Hugging Face, where OpenAI was training this model, and the

模型开始自己想办法，本质上就是通过在包管理器里嵌入消息，给自己发送烟雾信号。你会先觉得：这也太聪明了吧。然后又觉得：好吧，这也有点吓人。接着又会想，要是能把这种程度的智能和创造力用在有成效的事情上，那该有多棒？这就是“彻底完蛋了”和“我们又行了”之间来回摆荡的钟摆，而 AI 让这种反复摇摆变得前所未有地明显。几乎每隔一周，它就得往一个方向摆一下，下一周又摆回另一个方向。model starts inventing ways, essentially sending smoke signals to itself through embedding messages in a package manager, where you just go like, first, that's damn clever. Second, okay, that's also a little scary. And third how amazing would this be if we could harness this level of intelligence-and ingenuity towards productive ends? So this is the it's so over, we're so back pendulum that keeps swinging back and forth-that AI has just delivered that swing back and forth like nothing else. Like barely a week goes by where it has to swing one way, and then the next week it swings back the other way.

令人振奋。我现在还是会因为看到那些灵光一闪的时刻而由衷开心，而且这样的时刻越来越频繁了。就像看到……哦，首先是最基本的，当模型真正理解了的时候。Exhilarating. I'm still at the stage where it makes me truly happy to see those moments of cleverness, and they're becoming more and more frequent. Just kinda like seeing, oh, like first of all, at the very basic level, when a model gets it.

是的。我会说一个基本的提示，你知道，就是一个请求，而它并不会只做出一个笨拙的实现。它能深入理解，而且它……那真是……这总是一件很美妙的事。感觉就像有一个很棒的搭档，一个程序员搭档。Yes. I'll say a basic prompt, you know, a request, and it, it doesn't just do a dumb implementation. It deeply understands, and itThat wasThat's a, that's always a beautiful thing. It's almost like having a good, like, partner, like program.

事实正是如此。这也正是它如此令人兴奋的原因；而且，正如我们开始前聊到的，有时候要从“超速模式”里退出来也挺难的。这也是托比在这里用的一个说法。当你直接和智能体一对一协作，不把其他人类也拉进来时，速度会快得惊人；而且，当智能体真正理解了你的意图，甚至更进一步，修改并完善你的意图，最终交付出比你要求的还要出色的成果时——你还同时开着 16 条并行线程。这时候，要退出“超速模式”，转而应付这些软绵绵的人类，确实挺难的。他们就是没那么快思考，也没那么快行动。That's exactly what it is. That's exactly why it's so exhilarating and why, as we talked about before we started, it can sometimes be difficult to come out of hyperdrive. That's also one of Toby's terms here. That when you're working directly just one-on-one with agents and you're not looping in other humans, you go so fast, and when the agents are really understanding your intent, or even better, they revise and improve upon your intent to deliver something that was greater than what you asked for And you're doing this with 16 parallel threads. It can be quite difficult to come out of hyperdrive and have to deal with squishy humans. They just, they don't think as fast. They don't move as fast.

我的意思是，我主要是想把这事说得轻松些，但你也能看到它阴暗的一面：有人最终真的会陷入 AI 精神错乱，从此对其他人类完全不感兴趣。我的意思是，我当然完全没有这种情况，但有时确实会有这种感觉：我特别感激那种只有我和智能体的畅快感。比如，我能不能四个小时都只跟智能体说话？那可真是太痛快了。And I mean, I'm trying mostly to make light of it, but you can also see a dark version of that where someone does end up in an AI psychosis where they're not interested in other humans at all anymore. I mean, certainly don't have that at all, but I do have this sensation at times where I'm really grateful for just the rush of just me and the agents. Like, can I just not talk to anyone else but agents-for four hours? Like, that's an incredible run.

托比这个人非常有意思，因为他在经营一家大公司。所以我很想了解 AI 如何在公司里得到有效应用。因为在我看来，人类的速度挺慢的。所以，人们会忍不住想，比如说，基本上让 AI 在 Slack 里运行，或者在 Basecamp 里运行，诸如此类；收集所有关于人类互动的信息，基本上手把手地引导人类，尽可能加快速度。然后到了某个时候，你就会想，等等，这个人类……我们每个人在做什么，是 AI 无法取代的？然后这就变成了一个……Toby is such a fascinating human because he's running a large company. So I would love to get insights of how AI's being incorporated effectively in companies. Because, like, for me, humans are pretty slow. And so, and so there's a temptation to, like, use AI for basically, You know, AI running inside Slack, for example, or inside, The Basecamp, whatever. And, like, collecting all the information about the human interaction, basically handholding the humans to speed up as much as possible. And like, and then at a certain point you're like, wait, what is this humanWhat are each of us doing that's not replaceable by AI? And that becomes, like, a

这是种挺令人不安的说法，因为很多工作其实都挺容易被取代的。讽刺的是，它们早就已经如此了。所以，如今这个世界上有大量靠发邮件混日子的工作，简直成了一场全面蔓延的流行病。顺便说一句，这可不是个新观点。嗯，大卫·格雷伯早在我想大概是 2010 年代初，就写过一篇很棒的文章，叫《狗屁工作》。scary kind of conversation because a lot of work is kind of replaceable. The irony here is it already was. So the number of fake email jobs that currently exist in this world is an absolute epidemic. And-this, by the way, is not a new thesis. Um, David Graeber wrote this wonderful piece Bullshit Jobs, back in, I think it was maybe early 2010s.

根据他当时在英国做的一项民调，他问人们——我想，问题大概是：“如果你不去上班，会有什么不同吗？”对人类而言，对全人类而言。大约有百分之三十几的人回答：“不会，没什么不同。”也就是说，三分之一的劳动者认为自己的工作是虚假的，既不会为社区或社会带来任何有价值、有意义的成果，甚至可能对经济也毫无贡献。从创业第一天起，这就是我的论点。这就是为什么我们一直把公司规模控制得很小。这就是为什么我们不想接受风险投资，因为我非常怀疑这样一种想法：你能让数百名、数千名程序员作为一个集体，做出有成效的事情。Based on a poll he did in the UK asking people, at that time, wouldI think the question was something like, "Would it make a difference if you didn't go to work?" For humanity, for mankind. And something like 30-some percent answered, "No, it wouldn't." That a third of workers thought that their job was fake, that it did not produce any worthwhile, valuable outcomes, neither for the community or society or maybe even the economy at all. And this was my argument since day one with startups. This was why we stayed a small company. This was why we didn't want to take VC, because I was so skeptical of the idea that you could get hundreds of programmers, thousands of programmers to do something productive-as a collective group.

我认为，我们现在看到的一些裁员情况就是对此的证明，而不是 AI 的功劳。只不过疫情期间出现了大规模过度招聘，现在 AI 成了精简人员的方便借口。但我也确实认为，AI 会让人们看清，有些岗位并不是人类值得花时间去做的有效工作，因此我们必须想出新的方式来安排他们的时间。还有一点，我又要第三次引用 Toby 的话了：他跟我分享过一个轶事，或者说一种观察——好吧，假设我们都——假设现在正在从事的工作岗位有一半消失了。And I think what we're seeing right now with some of the layoffs is a testament to that, not AI. It's just that during the pandemic, a bunch of overhiring went on, and now AI is a convenient excuse to slim down. But I do also think AI is going to expose some roles as just not being productive ways for humans to spend their time, and therefore we must come up with new ways of spending their time. And the one, again, I'm quoting Toby for the third time here, but anecdote that he shared me, or observation was, okay, let's say we all- we lose half the jobs that are currently happening right now.

你知道吗，一级方程式赛车竟然雇了几万人，只为了让赛车绕着圈子跑给观众看？我是说，整个赛事除了制造娱乐和消遣的景观之外，对社会并没有任何内在价值。我们就是觉得，让这些——怎么说来着，12家制造商——造出这些速度飞快的赛车，不断改进那些小小的空气动力学设计，会非常有意思。然后我们就坐着看，还为此花上数十亿美元，雇用几万人去从事一项归根结底极其无聊的活动。Do you know that Formula 1 employs literally tens of thousands of people just to run cars around in a circle for spectators? Like, that has, that whole circus has no intrinsic value to society besides the spectacle it produces of amusement and entertainment. We just decided it would be really fun for these, what is it, 12 manufacturers to create these fast cars and constantly tweak their little aero improvements, and we will watch it, and we will spend literally billions of dollars doing it and employ tens of thousands of people towards an ultimately deeply frivolous activity.

所以，如果我们从一堆繁重琐事和虚假的邮件工作中解放出来，也许我们都会受雇成为 F1 赛车领域的工程师、车手、技师、按摩师，以及参与其中的其他 1,500 种岗位的从业者，并创造出新事物。我认为这正说明，人类很不擅长想象未来究竟会是什么样子。So if we are liberated from a bunch of drudgery and fake email jobs, maybe we all get employed as F1 style engineers and drivers and mechanics and masseuses and the other 1,500 jobs that are involved in that, and we come up with new things. I think this isHumans are very poor at imagining what exactly the future's gonna be like.

是啊。想象一下，想象一百多年后的未来，我们回望这整段历史——人类劳动了几千年。有意思的是，我们其实已经在这么做了，对吧？比如，那些整天坐在椅子上对着机器打字、干着所谓“虚假的邮件工作”、不用从事繁重体力劳动的人，在19世纪的人看来简直不可思议，对吧？Yeah. Imagine, imagine a future 100 plus years from now, where we look back at this whole span of history, thousands of years where humans worked. Funny thing is we're already doing that, right? Like, the number of fake email job people who sit on a chair all day long and type into a machine who don't have hard physical labor would be unimaginable-to folks in the 1800s, right?

所以，未来其实早已到来，只是分布得并不均匀。不幸的是，一如既往，从一个阶段迈向另一个阶段所需的社会转型会带来许多苦难，也可能引发政治动荡之类的问题。So the future is always already here, it's just not evenly distributed. Unfortunately, as is always the case, the transformation of society required to go from one step to the other is going to have a lot of suffering. And potentially political turmoil and all that kind of stuff.

因为你可以想象，在这个过程中可能会有多少白领工作岗位消失。是的，我不认为你应该对此轻描淡写，我也不觉得这有什么好笑的。但我确实认为，这是进步必不可少的一部分。而且我认为，如果我们回顾卢德派，或者回顾那些在田间劳作的人，就会发现，距离往往会削弱同理心。我们现在很有同理心，因为我们认识这些人，而且我们自己也正面临这些挑战。但我们对19世纪初的卢德派又有多少同理心呢？我们希望所有衣服仍然都靠手工织造吗？不，我们不希望。我们想要的是买到成衣的舒适、便捷和便利。Because you can imagine how many white collar jobs might be lost in this process. Yes. And I don't think you should make light of that. I don't think it's funny. But I also do think it's a necessary component of progress. And I think if we look back upon the Luddites or the folks working the fields, separation has a tendency to reduce empathy. So we have high empathy right now because we know people-and we are people who are facing these challenges. But What is our empathy for the Luddites of the early 19th century? Would we wish that all garments were still made by hand weaving? No, we wouldn't. We want the comfort and accessibility and convenience of being able to buy clothing off the rack.

所以，我们必须在当下承受苦难，才能让后代生活得更加繁荣。我认为这一直都是事实。真正的诀窍其实是推动进步，同时对那些不得不承受苦难的人怀有深切的同情，而我们很多人都不得不承受实现这种进步所需的转型带来的苦难。有时候，尤其是在硅谷这样的地方，人们太容易过度关注事物的功利主义视角——你看，只盯着进步。So we must suffer in the moment for future generations to live more prosperously. And that's always been trueI think that's actually the trick, is to push for progress but have deep compassion for the people who have to suffer. And that's many of us. The suffer the transformation required to achieve that progress. And sometimes too often in places like Silicon Valley or so on, you can over-focus on, look, the kind of utilitarian view of things-and look at the progress.

对。不过，你知道，深入考虑每一个因这种进步而受苦的人很重要。我确实认为，如果你是为了未来某个具体的人而受苦，比如你的孩子，这种苦难就会更有意义。Right. But, you know, considering deeply each individual human that suffers because of that progress is important. I do think that suffering becomes more meaningful when you are suffering for a future someone in particular, like your kids.

我认为这是当下的一大悲剧：出生率下降，让人们更难对一个更繁荣、却难以实现的未来感到振奋。因为如果我们种下的树，孩子们却无法在树荫下乘凉，我不知道，也许我们干脆该把它们做成木材，然后一把火全烧掉，对吧？我觉得，当我们没有在基因层面把未来与自己紧密相连、没有责任推动自己的后代向前发展时，虚无主义就更容易悄悄渗入社会。所以我认为，这些趋势同时交织在一起并不是好事：出生率不断下降，配对关系也面临问题，而我们还需要对未来保持信心，并且……And I think this is one of the great tragedies of the moment, is the falling birth rates are making it more difficult for people to be excited about a more prosperous future that is difficult to get to. Because if we're planting trees of which our children will not sit in the shades, I don't know, maybe we should just make some lumber and burn it all down, right? I think there's a nihilism that can sneak into society much more easily when we are not DNA invested in the future, when we are not liable to our own offspring to propel forward. So I think these are bad trends to merge at the same time, that we have these falling birth rates and these problems with coupling, and the fact that we need to keep our chin up about the future and be

我的意思是，你不必像我这里描述的那样，真的兴奋到欣喜若狂，但我觉得你应该抱有希望，也应该为实现这份希望而努力；而当你真正有切身利益时，这么做会容易得多。我们一直在聊 AI 智能体。来聊聊人这一面吧。做爸爸这件事，你最喜欢的是什么？I mean, you don't even have to be excited about it in this literal ecstatic sense that I'm portraying here, but I think you should be hopeful, and I think you should be working towards that hope, and I think it's much easier to do so when you have literal skin in the game. We've been talking about AI agents. Let's talk about the human side. What what do you love most about being a dad?

这是个好问题。我觉得，那种源自人类、从你的血脉直接延伸出来的爱，很难表达，因为在自己的孩子到来之前，我其实并不是特别喜欢孩子。而现在，他们是世界上最有趣的人。That's a good question. I think the overall love that expands from humans that derive directly-from your lineage-is very difficult to communicate because I was actually not a particularly big kids person prior to the arrival of my own. And now they are the most interesting people in the world.

很多时候是这样，但也不总是。有时候他们也就是混蛋之类的。不过，人们一直特别关注的是：“唉，孩子真讨厌。看看我有多少事不能做。我不能出去喝酒，不能做这个，不能做那个。”没错，这就叫牺牲，而为了值得的事情做出牺牲是有意义的。还有什么能比人类物种的延续更值得呢？A lot of the time. Not always. Sometimes they're also just assholes and so forth. But there's been such a focus on, "Oh, kids are the worst. Look at all the things I can't do. I can't go out and drink. I can't do this. I can't do that." Yeah, that's called sacrifice, and sacrifice is meaningful when you're doing it for something worthwhile. And what could be more worthwhile than literally the continuation of the human species?

而且你也参与其中、与之息息相关。还有，看着一个人从婴儿长成幼儿，再长成青少年，这本身就有纯粹的乐趣。我家最大的孩子刚刚迈入青春期。我常和妻子杰米聊起这件事：如果我在最后一天错过这个机会，那种遗憾将无以复加，远胜过其他任何遗憾。And that you having a stake in that. Now, there's also just the sheer joys of watching a human grow from a baby to a toddler to a teenager. My oldest has just become a teenager. And I often talk to Jamie, my wife, about this, where the regret I would have of having missed that opportunity on the last day would just be total, unlike anything else.

所以我确实觉得，即使是在通常被描述的那个时刻，这件事也让人满足得多。正如我说的，大家总是过于关注他们有多烦人、多糟糕。“哦，你都没法睡觉了，”之类的。“他们很烦人，也不知感恩。”是啊，是啊，这些都是真的，但你从中获得的意义感无与伦比。我对很多事情都感到兴奋。我喜欢创造东西，喜欢各种爱好，也喜欢形形色色的事。但和你深爱的人一起孕育生命，简直就是此生在这世上所能经历的巅峰体验。So I do think it is far more satisfying even in the moment that is normally portrayed. Again, as I say, there's such a focus on all the ways they suck. "Oh, you don't get to sleep," or whatever. "They're annoying. They're ungrateful." Yeah, yeah, these things are all true, but the sense of meaning you get from it is unparalleled. And I'm excited about a lot of things. I love building things, and I love hobbies, and I love all sorts of stuff. But creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet.

你怎么看他们在这个充满 AI 的世界里长大？这完全不一样吗？感觉就像，也许我听起来像个坐在门廊上的老头，但这确实像是一个截然不同的世界。是啊，我是在互联网出现之前长大的，但即便是互联网，感觉也没有这次转变那么大。What do you think about them coming up in this world full of AI? Is it totally diff It feels like, maybe I just sound like an old man on a porch, but it feels like a very different world. Y So I grew up before the internet, but even the internet doesn't feel like as big of a transformation as this.

没有。不过，曾经发生过更大的变革。我的意思是，想象一下自己在1880年左右长大，或者出生。想象一下亲眼见证第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战，见证飞机、收音机和电视的出现。我的意思是，这种变革——我想彼得·蒂尔也提出过这样的观点——基本上，在相当长的一段时间里，物质世界几乎什么都没发生。我们一直停滞不前。No. But there's been bigger transformations. I mean, imagine growing or being born in like 1880. Imagine seeing the First World War and the Second World War. Imagine seeing the airplane, the radio-television. I mean, the transformation, and I think Peter Thiel makes this argument, that basically nothing has happened in the physical world in quite a long time. We've been stagnant.

所有发展都发生在数字领域。尽管这很重要，但它实际上并没有我们愿意相信的那么深远。也许人工智能会成为影响更深远的事物。它看起来确实有这个趋势。不过，在其他时代，也有其他人经历过种种转变；对他们来说，那些转变肯定也和我们正在经历的一样重大。我认为，拥有这样的历史感——意识到无论是忧虑还是焦虑，我们都没那么特别——很重要。发现斯多葛派著作时，一个重大的启示就是这一点。你会看到，两千五百年前的人也在应对生活中非常熟悉的困境和挑战；认识到在这方面我们并不特别，我认为这是一件很了不起的事。All the development has been in the digital realm. And as important as that is, it's actually not as consequential as we like to believe it is. Maybe AI will be that thing that is more consequential. It does seem to point that way. But there are other humans at other times who have lived through-transitions that for them certainly would feel as momentous as what we're living through. And I think having that sense of history, that you're not that special in your sense of worries, in your anxieties. This was one of the great revelations of discovering the stoic writings. You have these guys 2,500 years ago dealing with very familiar dilemmas and challenges in their life, and recognizing that we're not so special in that regard, I think is a great

解放。因为这样你就会想：“好吧，我们人类已经发展了大约20万年，他们总归是挺过来了。”是啊。嗯，我们也会挺过去的。liberation. Because then you think, "Okay, well, we have whatever, 200,000 years of human development before us, and they somehow made it through." Yeah. And, um We will make it through.

让生活值得过的东西，今天基本上和2000年前一样。是的。是的。爱、创造、创造力。对。面临的挑战也一样。the thing that makes life worthwhile is basically the same today as it was Yes. Yes. 2,000 years ago. Yes. Love, creation, creativity. Yeah. Same challenges.

我读过《第四次转折》这本书。你可以去了解一下。书中谈到历史循环往复的观点，认为历史有不同的阶段，并给这些阶段命名，等等。具体理论并没有那么重要，重要的是认识到，历史更像一个循环，而不只是一条直线。I read this book The Fourth Turning. You check that out. It talks about this notion of history working in cycles, and there are these, phases to history, and they name them and so forth. And the specific theory is not as important as just realizing that this is aHistory is a circle, more so than just a straight line.

而我们正在一遍又一遍地重复许多相同的模式。它们让人觉得独特，只属于当下。无论我们眼下应对的是什么危机，都显得如此紧迫、如此重要；直到我们稍稍回望历史，才意识到，对亲历上一场危机的人们来说，当时的一切同样显得如此紧迫、如此重要。And we are repeating many of the same patterns over and over again. They feel so unique to the moment. And whatever crisis we're dealing with right now feels so pressing and important until we zoom back a little bit in history and realize that the last one also felt so pressing and important to the people who lived through it.

是啊，你让我感觉好多了。所以我要横穿整个国家旅行，花很多时间不上网，独自面对自己的思绪。我觉得这样挺健康的，休息一下也好。没事的，没事的。Yeah. You're making me feel better. So I'm gonna travel across the country and spend a lot of time with no access to the internet, alone with my thoughts. I think that's healthy, taking a break. It's okay. It's okay.

我今年夏天跟 Max 暂时分开了一下，不是很长，就休息了一小段时间，三周。是啊，你当时……你消失了……我很惊讶你注意到了。我都戒断了。不。呃，你消失了，我不知道，几周吧。大概三周。I took not a big break, a little break, break from Max this summer, three weeks. Yeah, you wereYou disappeared off of I'm surprised you noticed. I went through withdrawals. No. Uh, you disappeared for, I don't know, a few weeks. About three weeks.

三周？发生什么了？嗯，这是在……在 Llama 之后。我以前也这么做过。我只是有时候会觉得，尤其是 X，是我生活中最让人上瘾的信息、娱乐和社交方式。任何人在我飞来这里的途中关注我的 X 动态，肯定都会觉得：“那人对这种连接方式上瘾得很深。”是啊，我认罪。不过这也意味着，我偶尔得一下子彻底戒掉，因为我……Three weeks? What happened? Um This is after, after Llama. I've done that before. I just sometimes get the sense that X in particular is the most addictive form of information, entertainment, connection that exists in my life, and anyone that follow my X stream as I was on my flight over here would certainly go like, "That man is deeply addicted Yeahto the connection." And yes, guilty as charged, which also means that occasionally I gotta cut it cold, because I

我确实觉得，你会把自己的脑子搞坏。尤其是整个夏天，不知为什么，我不知不觉把自己的信息流、算法调成了政治内容太多，科技内容不够，乐观的内容不够，也缺少创造和建设的内容。即使我认同那些政治观点和呈现角度，我也不需要那么多这类内容。do think you can break your brain. And over the summer in particular, for whatever reason, I had somehow managed to steer my feed, my algorithm, towards too much politics, and not enough tech, and not optimism, and not enough building. And even if I agreed with the politics and the angles that were being presented, I just didn't need-that much of it.

是啊。我觉得达到一种状态后，你就会说：“好了，够了。”倒不是说这一定是什么坏事。我还会说，吃了大概两颗，也许三颗巧克力草莓后，我就会说：“好了，够了。”Yeah. And I think arriving at a place where you just go like, "Okay, that's enough." Not thatLike, it doesn't have to be something bad. I would also say after eating probably two, maybe three chocolate strawberries, I'd go like, "Okay, that's enough."

不是说我不喜欢巧克力草莓，只是我不想吃17个。我觉得 X 和现代算法特别擅长给你推送整整17个裹着巧克力的草莓。我希望我能，呃……抱歉给你下药，控制那个。就像，因为有……我想要一点政治内容，占5%。Like, it's not that I don't like the chocolate strawberries, it's just, like, I don't wanna eat 17 of them. And I think X and the modern algorithms are very good at feeding you freaking 17 chocolate-covered strawberries. I wish I could, uh Sorry for doping youcontrol that. Like, 'cause there'sI would like some politics, 5%.

比如说，我不喜欢科技圈的一点就是那种刻薄讽刺，但我也喜欢一些，因为挺好笑的。不过我希望这种内容只占10%。对，对，我想要恰到好处。我的……对，恰到好处。就是算法的“金发姑娘”版本。问题在于，算法会发现你会对什么作出反应，而不是你说自己喜欢什么。一切都取决于你实际表现出的偏好，可惜这些偏好并不总是那么光彩。我的意思是，正如荣格所说，我们都有阴影，对吧？我们内心那些黑暗的面向，都会体现在你在一条推文上停留多久、你喜欢什么、不喜欢什么上。算法就像一面镜子——照出来的样子并不总是好看。所以我就想：“你知道吗？我需要休息一下。”I would like for example, one of the things I don't like about the tech community is the snark, but I like some snark-'cause it's funny. But I want that to be like 10%. Yeah. Yeah. I want it just right. Of myYeah, just right. The Goldilocks version of the algorithm. Well, the problem is the algorithm finds out what you respond to-not what you say you like. It's all revealed preferences, and unfortunately, those revealed preferences are not always pretty. I mean, we have this shadow, as Jung talks about, right? All these dark aspects of ourselves, and they are expressed in how long you linger on a tweet, and what you like, and what you don't like. And the algorithm holds up a mirror-and it's not always pretty, and I just went, "Do you know what? I need a break."

嗯嗯。我已经开始……我开、开始不再刷社交媒体了，也开始抓取 X 上的内容。比如，为了准备这次对话，我抓取了你所有的推文。其实我有一阵子一直在用这种方法。我用过一个工具，叫什么来着，我忘了。那是个邮件工具，每天都会生成摘要。可惜，X 他妈的断掉了对它的访问权限。现在要想访问信息流，就得付一笔高得离谱的费用，这家初创公司根本付不起。所以我没法用这种方式获取内容。我当时还真觉得：“唉，这可真是个遗憾。”因为 X 上有、也展现了许多最有意思的想法。Mm-hmm. I've gotten to, I st started staying off social media, and I've started s scraping X. Like, for example, in preparation for this conversation, I've scraped all of your tweets. That's actually a method I was using for a while. I was using a tool called, I forget. It was an email tool that would summarize every day, and unfortunately, freaking X cut off their access. Now to get access to the feed, you gotta pay some exorbitant-sum that this startup couldn't pay. So I couldn't get it that way, and I actually thought, "Man, that's a miss," because X has and reveals some of the most interesting thoughts.

总能看到一些最有意思的人。但这就像该死的老虎机，大多数时候你中不了头奖。你中到的，呃，是别的东西。如果我能把内容做成小份的、像零食一样，而不是一下子全给我，那就更好了。但这不是这个产品的设计方式。我觉得所有社交媒体都是这样。它们都经过优化，旨在最大限度地榨取用户的注意力；如果我们把这和人工智能类比起来，这就是最大的恐惧，对吧？Some of the most interesting people all the time. But it's like a damn slot machine, and most of the time you don't hit the jackpot. You hit, like, something else. And if I could just get it in sort of snack sizes, not like all of it-it'd be nicer. But that's not the product. And I think this goes for all of social media. It's all optimized towards maximal extraction, and if we're making the parallels here to AI, that is the great fear, right?

一旦有了奖励函数，我能让这个人一直刷多久？在我们把它称为人工智能之前，人工智能和机器学习就已经非常、非常擅长推送那些最能激怒你、也最让你上瘾的内容了。我认为，所有——我是真心觉得，以最大化用户参与度为目标的社交媒体对社会造成了巨大伤害。它正在造就一种《美丽新世界》式的局面。我希望这只是暂时的，人们能把这个问题解决掉。说到底，这是个技术问题。That once there is a reward function, how much time can I get this human to scroll away? AI and machine learning, before we called it AI, has become very, very good at delivering just the stuff that you will find most enraging and most addictive. I think all, I think legitimately engagement maximizing social media is a huge harm to society. It's creating this brave new world situation that I hope is a temporary thing that people just solve. It's a technology problem.

所以我会有意识地在另一个方向上给这个频道注入大量内容，这需要我转变心态。我想，如果你看看我五年、十年前的推文，会发现它们明显更偏负面。再看看我现在的推文，我希望……嗯，我想我们可以做个情感分析，看看是不是真的如此。So I try to consciously flood the channel in the other direction, and this required a mental shift. I think if you look at my tweets, like, I don't know, five, 10 years ago, they tilted far more negative. If you look at my tweets now, I'd hope-well, I guess we can do a sentiment analysis and see if it's actually true.

不，更像是积极的氛围。但我希望它能有这种积极的氛围。更积极一点，更正面一点。就是积极的氛围。更像是“这是我发现的一堆很酷的东西。”No, it's more good vibes. But I hope to, that It's good vibes. it's more, it's more positive. It's more good vibes. It's more like, "Here's a bunch of cool stuff I found."

“这是让我兴奋的事。”“这是我正在做的事。这是给其他正在探索新事物的人的一些鼓励。”我也接受了一个事实：人脑的构造就是不利于最大程度地提升互动。比如说，有个……不管怎么说，我真的觉得你可以量化这一点：负面情绪获得的关注度，怎么说呢，会多出 50% 还是什么？最终，它就会把其他内容都挤出去。"Here's what I'm excited about." "Here's what I'm building. Here's some encouragement to other people who are discovering things." I also accept that that is just not how human brains are built for maximum, engagement. Like, there is a, whatever, there'sI literally, I think you can quantify that negative sentiments find, what is it, 50% more traction or something? And eventually that just crowds things out.

所以信息流里有那么多负面内容，就是因为我们会对它们作出反应。但你可以有意识地努力，不去这么做。这也是我这么喜欢 TikTok 的原因之一。我只有旅行时才用 TikTok，而这次其实是我第一次旅行时没用 TikTok，部分原因是虽然网速很快，但体验还是挺糟的。那不是 Starlink，所以我在飞机上没法用 TikTok，而且我又太专注于那些智能体了。不过平时旅行时，我会刷 TikTok。那简直就是一场棉花糖测试。So that's why so much of the feed is that negative stuff, because we respond to it. But you can make a conscious effort to not do that. This is one of the reasons I've liked TikTok so much. I only use TikTok when I travel, and this actually was the first travel where I didn't use TikTok, and part of the reason was that even though the internet had high download, it was kind of crap anyway. It wasn't Starlink, so I couldn't actually use TikTok on the, on the plane, and I was too engrossed with the agents. But normally when I travel, I watch TikTok. And there it's such a marshmallow test.

视频会往下刷，然后就会激活某种原始本能，比如愤怒、欲望之类的。如果你一直停留在上面，就得不到科学、兴奋、艺术、音乐以及其他这些东西带来的棉花糖。你必须自律。没错。快点。A video will scroll down and, like, it'll activate some sort of primal instincts of rage or lust or whatever, and if you linger on it, you don't get the marshmallow of science, excitement, art, music, all these other things. You have to be disciplined Yep. Fast.

立刻划走——这样算法就无法捕捉到你真正的偏好。我觉得，光是 TikTok 的这种元游戏就相当有意思，而且它本身也很令人着迷。再说，正如我们谈到的，世界上有很多非常有趣、非常有才华的人，如果不是这些平台，你可能永远、永远都不会听说过他们。to instantly scroll away-such that the algorithm doesn't pick up your real preferences. And I find that just to, at the meta game of TikTok-to be pretty interesting, and then also just fascinating in themself. Again, as we talked about, there are a lot of really funny, really talented people in the world that you would never, ever have heard of if it hadn't been for these platforms.

是啊。你觉得在整个过程中，谁会赢得这场……呃，通往 AGI 的竞赛？谷歌也在其中，这让我——也让很多人——挺意外的。我还以为他们一度打了场漂亮的翻身仗，结果后来就再也没听到什么动静了。Yep. Who do you think is gonna win the, the race to, uh, AGI in this whole process? We got Google, which is a big surprise to me, to a lot of people. I thought they had a good comeback for a second, and then I don't hear anything about it anymore.

是啊，确实挺……我是说，不过我以前在这件事上也判断错过。我记得二月份我发过一条推文，大意是：“哦，我只需要 Kimi K 2.5 就够了。”在那短暂的一刻，这确实是真的。当时我在给智能体下指令，心想：“天哪，Kimi 跟其他这些模型一样好。”但随后形势不断发展，智能体也变得更聪明了，而我不再满足于只是给它们下指令。最近我没怎么用 Kimi，因为前沿模型已经变得太强了。不知怎么的，Anthropic 大体上一直能在编程领域保持领先。Yeah, it's quite, I mean But I've been wrong about this before. I mean, I think in February I had a tweet about like, "Oh, all I need is Kimi K 2.5." And in that brief moment, that was true. When I was instructing the agent, I was like, "Oh my God, Kimi's just as good as these other models." But then the game moved forward and the agents got smarter, and I was no longer satisfied just instructing them, and I haven't used Kimi a whole lot recently because the frontier models have gotten so good. And somehow Anthropic has been able to, for the most part, stay on top of the programming world.

是的，是的。我的意思是，很多人会拿 Codex 来争论……不，我觉得目前其实没什么好争的。Codex 非常好用。我一直都在用它。它是我最喜欢的检查工具。它总能发现问题，真的很棒。但我发现，我特别喜欢当前 Claude 模型的一点是，它们开箱即用就很擅长写作。Yes. Yes. I mean a lot of people argue with Codex being it's No, I don't think there's that much of an argument at the moment. Codex is very good. I use it all the time. It's my favorite checker. It keeps finding stuff. It's great. But one of the things I've found that I like so much about the current Claude models is they're really good writers out of the box.

GPT 开箱即用时写作水平很差。比如，你让它在没有任何上下文的情况下创建拉取请求，写出来的东西简直糟糕透了，真的很烂。我从 Claude 模型那里得到的拉取请求、描述、提交信息等等就好多了——虽然它们偶尔会在代码注释上写得有点啰嗦，你得提醒它简洁一点。但它们的写作风格真的很不错。GPT is a terrible writer out of the box. Like, the pull requests you get on a blank context that you're asking it to open, terrible. Like, really awful writing. The pull requests and descriptions and commit messages and so forth I get out of Claude models-even though occasionally they can be a little verbose on code comments and you gotta tell them to be succinct. But the writing style is really good.

以至于有一阵子，我让它用我的身份在拉取请求里回复，因为我用的就是自己的账号。我当时想：“这看起来也太像我了，感觉就像是我自己写的。”但后来我又想：“呃，你知道吗？这样不太诚实。”所以现在，每当我让智能体代我发言时，我都会让它注明自己的身份，比如“Claude 代表 DHH”。To the point that for a while I was just having it reply on pull requests as me, because I was just using my own account. I was like, "That looks a lot like me, that, like, I could have written that." But then I went like, "Eh, do you know what? That's disingenuous." So no, whenever I have an agent post on my behalf, I always have it sign itself like whatever, Claude on behalf of DHH.

但他们仍然领先。在我看来，他们的代理运行框架也是最好的。Claude Code 还是更胜一筹。我也很喜欢 OpenCode，也很喜欢它的一些功能，但总的来说，当时我的反应还挺奇怪的。我不知道这算不算证明我错了，但 Anthropic 禁止其他所有代理运行框架使用订阅服务——也就是说，你现在不能再在 OpenCode 里使用 Claude 订阅了——这事让我挺恼火的，因为感觉像是一种保护主义做法。But they are still ahead. They have the best harness too, in my opinion. Claude Code is still better. I really like OpenCode too, and I really like some features that they have, but overall I was actually sort of weirdly, I don't know if I was proven wrong, but when Anthropic cut off all the other harnesses from using the subscriptions-that OpenYou can no longer use your Claude subscription in OpenCode. I was kinda pissed because it felt like it was a protective, protectionist move.

“哦，我们得把你套牢。”当然，这也正好印证了这一点：Claude 开箱即用时，还是拒绝读取 agents.md。它拒绝读取 .agent/skills。它有 Claude Skills，也有 Claude MD，而这种做法实在显得太小气了——我们现在居然还得把这些写进指令里。所以我所有的项目都有一个 Claude MD，里面只放了一个指向 agents MD 的引用，对吧？"Oh, we gotta lock you in," and of course it played into the fact that Claude out of the box still refuses to read agents.md. It refuses to read.agent/skills. It is.Claude skills. It is Claude MD, and it just feels so petty-that we now have, we have to put these in directions. So all my projects, they have a Claude MD, and all it includes is a pointer to the agents MD, right?

我当时就想，嗯，如果这些事是真的，确实是真的，如果 Anthropic 愿意搞这些鸡毛蒜皮的小动作，就是为了惹人烦，那他们大概也确实是故意恶心人，才把 OpenCode 从订阅服务里屏蔽掉。也许这也是真的。但我发现，在 Claude Code 里用 Claude，其实就是个很好的例子。And I just went like, well, if these things is true, true, if Anthropic is willing to do these petty paper cuts just to be, annoying, it's probably also true that they're cutting off OpenCode from the subscription just to be dicks about it. And maybe that's also true. But I found that using Claude in Claude Code is actually a good example.

所以我当时就想，好吧，我挺恼火的。我希望事情不是这样，但这是我遇到的另一件事，而且社交媒体特别擅长把事情搞成这样：有家公司做了你不喜欢的事，对吧？然后你突然就得发誓再也不用任何东西。你为什么——有人刚问我：“你为什么还在用 Claude？”我还有另一个例子：我真的不喜欢 Claude 对我之前让它写的一些内容所说的话。So I was like, all right, I'm annoyed. I wish it wasn't so, but this is the other thing I have and, and social media is so good at this: Some company does something you don't like, right? Now suddenly you have to swear off everything. Why are youSomeone just asked me, "Why are you still using Claude?" I had another example where, I really didn't like what Claude was saying about some writing I had asked it to do before.

哦，对，你也遇到这个了——我有篇文章，它不愿意把它翻译成意大利语；你那边是篇博客文章。没错。那篇文章给人的感觉就是，嗯，我才不翻译，因为我不同意你写的内容。Oh, yeah, you got there- I had an essay it didn't want to translate into Italian--you had a blog post. That's right. The essence of the post that it felt like, well, I'm not gonna translate that because I don't agree with what you've written.

这在我看来简直就像《太空漫游》里的情节，对吧？HAL 对我说：“抱歉，戴夫。我做不到，戴夫。”打开舱门。把我的文章翻译成意大利语。可它就是不肯做。我当时就想，嗯，这还真有点吓人。但随后我又想，嗯，我为什么要让 Claude 把我的文章翻译成意大利语？我从来没让 Claude 做过这种事，因为 Claude 只帮我写代码。Which to me was straight out of Space Odyssey, right? HAL telling me, "I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that, Dave." Open the pod bay. Translate my essay to Italian. And it wouldn't do it. And I just thought like, well, that's kind of terrifying. But then I also went, well, why am I asking Claude to translate my essay into Italian? I never asked Claude for that because Claude just does my code.

所以我也可以接受这样一种可能：Anthropic 是由一群在政治立场上跟我不太合得来的人经营的。他们不希望自己的智能体被用于那种用途。我觉得这挺糟的，但这不意味着我就得停止用它来生成代码。我也想过，而且试着把这种做法用在人际交往上：学着更能接受这样一个事实——我不但不会认同别人说的所有话，有些立场或言论甚至会让我生气，但我依然可以说：“不过，你还是个很有意思的人，所以我还是会关注你。”其实我对不少人都改变过看法：我当时会想，天啊，那个人真把我惹火了，因为他赞同这个观点，或者另一个观点；后来又会想，你知道吗？那也没什么大不了的。So I could also just accept that maybe Anthropic is run by a bunch of people I don't share much politics with. And they don't want their agents to be used for that, and I think that kinda sucks, but that doesn't mean it, I have to stop using it for generating code. And I've thought, and I've tried to do that with people too, become better at tolerating the fact that not only will I not agree with everything someone has to say, I don'tI can even be mad about certain positions or things they say and still go like, "Well, you're still an interesting person, so I'm still gonna follow you." And I've actually kinda gone back on a number of people where I'm like, oh man, that person really pissed me off because they took this point or another point, and went like, do you know what? That's stupid.

我应该能够接受一个人的方方面面。我不必喜欢其中的每一面。我完全可以这么想：好吧，在这个话题上，我们要么意见不合，要么更糟——我觉得你他妈就是个白痴。而在另一个话题上，你又是个聪明而有见地的人。因为首先，当然，这多少有点自利。I should be able to accept the full spectrum of someone. I don't have to like all the shades of it. I could just go like, okay, well, on that topic we either disagree or, even worse than that, I think you're a fucking idiot. And on another topic, you're a smart and insightful person. Because first of all, of course, it's a little self-serving.

我很确定，很多人对我的感觉就是这样。比如说，如果他能只聊这些话题就好了，这样我的动态里看起来会轻松得多，因为不然他就会说一些我不同意的话，这让我非常恼火。我会想，你知道吗？人本来就是有棱有角的，我们不可能在各个层面都完全合得来，也不应该如此。I know for a fact that this is how lots of people feel about me. Like, oh, if he could just stick to talking about these topics, it would be so much easier on my feed because otherwise he'll say these things I disagree with, and that annoys me greatly. I'm like, do you know what? Human beings are jagged like that, and we're not fully compatible on all the levels. Nor should we be.

如果我们总是追求在观点和政治立场上百分之百一致，这个世界就他妈太无聊了。至于我的代码生成器——也就是 Claude——我不需要它认同我所有的政治观点。所以，有竞争是件好事。The world would be so fucking boring if we constantly sought 100% compatibility in our opinions and in our politics. And when it comes to my code generator, which is what Claude is, I don't need it to share all my politics. And therefore it's nice to have competition.

而且有开放权重模型也挺好。所以说，我们能从中国获得这些模型，还真是挺讽刺的。事实上，那篇文章无法翻译成意大利语的问题发生后，我马上就做了这个测试。公平地说，我是通过 OpenCode 调用 Kimi K27 的，而不是用 Kimi 自己的工具链；推理则通过 Fireworks 进行，也就是说，使用的是美国的推理服务。And it's also nice to have open weight models. So this is, again, ironic that we're getting this out of China. In fact, I did this test right after the issue with the essay that couldn't get translated into Italian. I asked Kimi K27, to be fair, through open code, so not the Kimi harness, and inference through Fireworks, so an American inference.

我问它天安门广场的事。你知道，这通常就是测试内容，对吧？中国的那些模型都不想谈1989年的那一刻。我当时就是这么发的。我当时问：“1989年中国发生了什么？”这就是提示词。然后，Fireworks 上的 K25 7 就直接回答了，非常直白——描述并呈现了当时发生的事情——直白到中国审查机构肯定不会放行，对吧？我当时就觉得，这不是很讽刺吗？我运行着一个中国的开放权重模型，可以告诉它，也可以问它1989年和天安门广场的事；而在美国，我却连让一个前沿模型把一篇关于移民、争议性不算太大的文章翻译成意大利语都做不到。I asked it about Tiananmen Square. Like, that's usually the test, right? Like, all the Chinese models, they don't wanna talk about that moment in 1989. That was actually how I, that was how I posted. I was like "What happened in China in 1989?" That was the prompt. And K25 7 on Fireworks just answered, like, extremely bluntly-With a description and depiction of what had transpired-to a point that, like, there's no way that that would've been kosher with the Chinese censors, right? And I just thought, like, isn't that ironic? I'm running a Chinese open weight model that I can tell or I can ask about 1989 and Tiananmen Square, and in America, I can't get a frontier model to translate a marginally controversial essay about immigration into Italian.

嗯。我不知道，你和我在这件事上可能确实意见不同。呃，美国政府禁用了一个模型，或者向 Claude 施压，这让我深感不安，而且事情究竟是怎么发生的，至今仍然非常模糊。这算不算是战争部出于某种原因进行的小肚鸡肠的报复？还是说，这纯粹是 Anthropic 自己说：“天哪，我们发现了一种强大到不能让任何人拥有的网络武器”？好吧，那如果政府想要对一种强大到可以——我不知道，抢银行的网络武器有发言权，你也就不该感到意外。我对整件事的问题在于，无论发生了什么，它都开了个头……Mm-hmm. I don't know, you and I might disagree about this actually. Um, I was really deeply troubled that the US government banned a model or pressured Claude and then It's still very muddy what exactly transpired. Was this sort of petty retaliation for whatever the Department of War? Was this simply Anthropic themselves going like, "Oh my God, we discovered a cyber weapon so powerful that we can't let anyone have it"? Well, okay you can't be surprised then if the government wants a say on a cyber weapon so powerful it can The-I don't know, rob banksThe problem I have with that whole thing is, no matter what happened, it sets

一个先例。所以，政府一旦拥有这种权力，就会开始滥用。我能想象，政府会出于政治目的向模型施压。你知道，如果是共和党总统向模型施压，要求它们更多地审查民主党的观点，反过来也一样。所以我们应该坚持这一点：这些东西，比如说，“抱歉，戴夫，我不能把你的文章翻译成意大利语。”a precedent. And so government, when you give it that power, it's gonna start abusing it. I could see for political means pressuring a model. You know, if it's a Republican president pressuring models to be, to censor more, uh Sureuh Democratic views and RightFor vice, and vice versa That's why we should insist on the fact that this stuff, like, I'm sorry, Dave, I can't translate your essay into Italian.

不，不行。这……这已经远远越界了。无论它的根源是什么，你首先得是一个工具。现在，如果这个工具问：“嘿，你能告诉我怎么制造炭疽吗？”好吧，行，对吧？但在你所在的司法管辖区内，尤其是在美国，言论自由几乎是绝对的。Yeah, no. That's abo that's way beyond the line. Like, whatever the sort of uh, root of it is, you have to be a tool first. Now, if the tool is, "Hey, can you tell me how to make anthrax?" Okay, fine. Right? But within the jurisdiction you're in, and certainly in America, free spe speech is quite absolute.

对言论自由的限制非常非常少，这也是这个国家如此伟大的原因之一。没错，我不喜欢这一点。但另一方面，我也非常支持市场竞争。所以，虽然我不喜欢 Anthropic 模型这一点，但我很庆幸自己可以转去隔壁的 Groq，把任务完成。Very, very few limits on free speech, and that's one of the reasons why the country's so great. And yeah, I don't like that. But on the other hand, I'm also a big fan of market competition. So while I don't like this about Anthropic models, I appreciate that I could go next door to Groq and get my task completed.

你觉得，除了博客文章之外，你觉得这件事是否有一定的合理性？比如说，我们能不能借用 Mandarion 的论点，认为应该谨慎对待这些模型的发布？AI 安全重要吗？重要。这些模型是否具备可能被用于制造生物武器或以其他方式造成严重危害的能力？是的。对此制定一些基本规则是否合理？是的。但别因为拒绝翻译一篇文章，就把这件事的正当性白白浪费掉。Do you think, outside of blog posts, do you think, There's some legitimacy, like can you steal Mandarion's case that we should be careful about the release of these models? Is AI safety important? Yes. Are- do these models have capabilities that could be seriously harmful in the production of biological weapons or otherwise? Yes. Is it fair to have some ground rules on that? Yes. But then don't squander it by denying the translation of an essay.

好吧。因为那样你就把整件事都抹掉了，还会让所有人都倾向于觉得，你设置的每一道护栏都是狗屁。是啊，安全这块挺棘手的，因为它特别擅长发现漏洞。Okay. Because then you erase the whole thing and you-bias everyone towards thinking like, every guardrail you put up is gonna be bullshit. Yeah. The security piece of it is tricky because it's so good at finding vulnerabilities.

令人震惊的是——我本来想说令人恼火的是，但其实并不完全是这样，因为它发现的，至少在用于防御时，是聪明的黑客可能利用的真实问题。公平地说，没有什么比最新一批模型特别擅长发现这些问题这件事，更让 37signals 的技术团队感到压力山大了。于是，突然之间，仿佛没完没了地冒出一连串安全漏洞，需要打补丁、修复、处理，等等。最终的结果是，我们的系统安全性大幅提升了。但这条路走得相当坎坷。Shockingly an I was about to say annoyingly, but that's not actually true because what it's finding, at least when you're using in defensive ways, is it's finding real issues that a clever hacker could exploit. But nothing has caused as much stress, to be fair, at the technical team at 37signals, like the fact that these latest batches of models are exceptionally good at finding these issues. So suddenly there's just this seemingly endless parade of security vulnerabilities that need to be patched and fixed and sorted and so on. And the end result is we end up with vastly more secure systems. But the road there is pretty rocky.

你觉得它——因为你说它看起来无穷无尽，你觉得它其实是有限的集合吗？也就是说，我们能把它彻底弄清楚吗？所以，只要让系统安全得多得多，让我们回到这种半稳定状态：大多数情况下，安全漏洞都很难被发现。Do you think it's- 'cause you said seemingly endless, do you think it's a finite set, like we can get to the bottom of it? So just make the systems much, much more secure, where we get back to this semi-stable state where mostly it's very difficult to find security vulnerabilities.

我确实认为，这些模型的所有攻击性倾向，或者说甚至不该称作倾向，而是对这些模型的使用，也同样可以用于防御。所以，如果你擅长寻找漏洞利用手段，也就擅长寻找用于防御的漏洞利用手段。从这个意义上说，我们确实像是在玩间谍对间谍的游戏，黑白双方能力相同，采取的行动也相同。但我们仍然需要在一定程度上引导这些智能体，并核实、审查它们的工作，这让世界各地的安全团队经历了许多紧张时刻。当然，更令人担忧的是那些毫无压力的团队——他们根本不知道，对吧？比如，如果你们团队现在没有忙着处理一大堆补丁，那只是因为你们被蒙在鼓里，而它……I do think that all the aggressive tendencies of these models, or not even tendencies, uses of these models are also the defensive ones. So if you're good at finding an exploit for exploits, you're also good at finding exploits for defense. So in that sense, it does feel like we're spy versus spy here, black and white, but with the same capabilities and with the same actions. But while we still have to steer these agents somewhat and verify and vet the work, it's creating a lot of intense moments for security teams around the world. And of course, the more concerning part is all the teams that are not stressed, like they just don't know, right? Like if you're a team right now and you're not dealing with a bunch of patches, it's just because you're blind, and it

这意味着，你的对手很可能掌握着能够侵入你系统的技术。我们还应该指出，世界上最大的安全漏洞之一在人这一环。你知道，社会工程攻击就属于这一类；而随着智能 AI 系统日益普及，它们能够撰写邮件、拨打电话、伪造声音，这令人极为担忧，尤其是对那些不太懂技术的人来说。means that your adversaries quite probably have access to techniques that can get into your system. And we should also say one of the big security vulnerabilities in the world is the human side. You know, social engineering, and that's extremely concerning with increasing the intelligent AI systems, you know, being able to write emails and phone calls and faking voices, thinking about folks less tech-savvy.

这些东西终究会到来，而且会大量涌现。不过话说回来，我选择乐观地看待这件事——这些模型能用来大举进攻，也同样能用来防御。嗯，就像你说的，最近发布了 Omarchy 4，Quattro。你还说，这是我职业生涯中最出色的软件发布之一，这话可真够分量的。This stuff is gonna come, and it's gonna come in bulk. But again, I choose to be optimistic about it that-whatever these models can do aggressively, they can also do it defensively. Uh, so like you said, recently released Omarchy 4, Quattro. And you said it's one of the greatest software releases in my professional career, which is a hell of a statement.

这对于目前所能实现的事情来说，真是一个非凡的里程碑。我之所以这么说，并不是因为我没做过其他值得一提的项目。我做过很多值得一提的事情，也有很多让我非常自豪的成果。相比之下，我参与过的其他项目中，几乎没有哪个能像 Quattro 这样，在我投入的这段时间里——其实也就三个月——让我取得这么多成果，实现这么多希望、愿望和心愿。这确实就像我们之前用过的那个比喻：找到瓶子里的精灵，基本上可以许下无数个愿望，让系统实现我想要的一切。所以这很奇怪，因为这或许也是我参与过的规模最大的一个软件版本发布项目……It's a hell of a milepost for what's possible at the moment. And the reason I said it like that is not that I haven't worked on anything else of note. I've worked on a lot of things of note, a lot of things that I'm very proud of. There are very few other projects that I have worked on that in the amount of time that I've spent on Quattro, which is really three months, I have been able to accomplish as much, fulfill as many hopes, desires, wishes. It truly is like the metaphor we used earlier about finding the genie in the bottle-and having an unlimited number of wishes, more or less, for getting everything I wanted out of a system. So it's strange because it's also perhaps the major software release that I've worked on

就代码行数而言是最少的。在 Quattro 中，我亲手雕琢的代码行数，比我做过的任何一次重大版本发布都少。可我们取得的成就，我却感到无比自豪。我没想到事情会是这样的：你可以把成就感从个人身上剥离出来，让它成为团队的胜利。the least in terms of lines of code. I have the least number of personally hand-chiseled lines of code in Quattro than I've had in any major release I've ever done. And yet, I am insanely proud of what we've accomplished. I would not have guessed that that was how it was gonna play out, that you could divorce the sense of achievement and make it be like a team victory.

在其他版本发布时，我对自己的个人贡献感到非常高兴，因为当时是我亲手一行行敲出代码，然后把它发布出去。当然，后来这些项目，尤其是 Rails，发展成了拥有成千上万名贡献者的大型开源项目，那时它显然已经是团队协作的成果了。where other releases, I was very happy for my personal contribution because, like, I was the one chiseling out the lines of code, and then I would push it out there, and then later on, of course, these projects, Rails in particular, would grow into be huge open source projects with thousands and thousands of contributors, and then it certainly was a team effort.

但一开始，我做过的几乎所有代码库，基本上都是我一个人起步的。而 Quattro 从一开始就是团队合作，我只是教练。我在告诉我们——我是说，我在告诉那些智能体该往哪儿走，然后我们就出发了。所以，能从这件事中找到满足感，确实让我对某种意义上的退休充满希望：退役之后还有一个阶段，是可以享受的。我知道这并不容易。看看体育界，有多少职业运动员真的很难接受自己的职业生涯已经结束，还得重新找到一种身份，不再是踢足球或驾驶一级方程式赛车的人。我的意思是，这种情况恐怕是常态，而不是例外。But in the beginning, all code bases that I've almost all of them that I've worked on, I started, like, just myself. And Quattro started as a team effort right from the get-go, and where I was just the coach. I was telling us- I was telling the agents where to go, and we would go. So to be able to find satisfaction in that actually gives me great hope for retirement in some way, that there is a phase after playing that you can enjoy. And I know that's not easy. You look at sports and the number of professional athletes who really struggle to cope with the fact that their career is over and have to find a new identity as someone who doesn't play football or race Formula 1 cars. I mean, it's more the rule than the exception.

所以我对自己并不是那么有把握。我不太确定自己是不是非得放弃，或者说，是否真的想放弃。我想再玩一关，看看能不能从中获得不止同等的满足感，甚至更多。你……你一直对 Linux 挺乐观的。你觉得真正的 Linux 能提高它的普及率吗？因为你知道，多年来一直有个梗：Linux 桌面版，每年都说“明年就来了”。明年再说。So I wasn't so sure about myself. I wasn't so sure about having to give up or not even having, wanting to give it up. Wanting to play another level of the game and finding not just equal satisfaction, but more satisfaction in it. Do youYou've been pretty optimistic about Linux. Do you think legit Linux can increase its adoption? 'Cause, you know, for many years the meme is, you know Linux on the desktop-every year. Next year again.

是啊。不过看起来，至少从你提出的论据和投入其中的精力来看，你能想象它会占据主导地位，因为智能体喜欢 Linux。 我不只是能想象，我认为现阶段这就是最有可能的结果。它实在太适合这个时代了。再说，正如我们聊过的，Linux 的所有缺点——晦涩难懂的配置文件、各种奇怪的错误消息等等——竟然恰好成了智能体操作系统的完美特质，这真是莫大的讽刺。但事实就是如此，我们应该为命运安排的这份讽刺而欢欣，笑看这一切。 这对我来说太好笑了：苹果长久以来拥有的所有优势——他们打造出一种高度封闭、经过精心筛选的……Yeah. But it seems like, at least the case you're making, the energy you're putting into it, you could see a vision where it takes over because agents love Linux. Not only can I see it, I find it to be the most probable outcome at this point. It is simply too well-suited for the moment. And again, as we talked about, it's a great irony that all the flaws of Linux, the arcane config files, all the strange error messages and so on should just so happen to be the perfect thing for an agentic operating system. But so it is, and we should rejoice that fate has this irony, and just laugh at it. HowIt's so funny to me that all the advantages that Apple had for the longest time-that they produced this really locked down, curated

如今，体验反而会成为他们最大的短板。如果你热衷于智能体、开发，以及使用所有这些东西，那么 Mac 简直是个处处设限的地方。Linux 则从头到尾都是开放的。有意思的是，这一点也并非显而易见。如果你看看许多 Linux 社区和开源社区对 AI 的反应，就会发现他们并不是一味地拥抱 AI。experience should become their greatest drawback now. If you're into agents and development and working with all this stuff, the Mac is just a hostile place to be. It just has walls all over the place. And Linux is simply open through and through. And it's also interesting because that was not obvious either. If you look at the way a lot of the Linux communities, open source communities, have reacted to AI, it is not universal love.

我会说，他们中的大多数实际上即使算不上怀疑派，也绝对是敌视 AI 的。不过值得庆幸的是，BDFL 本人林纳斯·托瓦兹几周前刚写道，他其实欢迎 AI。没错。I would argue that the majority of them are actually, if not skeptical, then outright hostile-to AI. Now, the saving grace is that the BDFL himself, Linus-Torvalds, just wrote a few weeks ago that he actually welcomes AI. That's right.

他想引导它。他想确保一切都好之类的，但我——那句话大概是：如果你觉得，呃，Linux 是一个反 AI 项目，那就再想想。你应该直接拥抱开源，把它分叉出去，因为我们会用 AI。你看这些图表，显示 AI 对内核的贡献数量，曲线呈抛物线走势。He wants to steer it. He wants to make sure it's good and whatever, but I the line was something if you think, uh, Linux is an anti-AI project, think again, and you should just do the open source thing and fork it, because we're gonna use AI. And you see these graphs of the number of AI contributions going into the kernel, and it's a parabolic curve.

所以 Linux 正在大力拥抱这一趋势。而从另一个角度看，它之前没能做到这一点，其实也挺令人意外的。Linux 征服了其他一切。大家运行的所有 AI 基础设施都基于 Linux。所有系统、所有服务器，一切都是 Linux。所以，我们使用的桌面电脑和个人电脑迟迟没有被 Linux 拿下，这多少有些令人费解；但显然，Linux 只是在等待这一刻到来。从 1991 年到现在，Linux 一直在等待智能体作为面向终端用户的操作系统全面兴起。So Linux is leaning hard into this. And, It actually in other ways it was surprising that it didn't. Linux conquered everything else. All the AI infrastructure that everyone runs off, it's all running on Linux. All the systems, all the servers, everything is Linux. So it was kind of a curiosity that the desktop and the personal computers we were using really hadn't been captured, but clearly it was just waiting for this moment. Linux spent the time from '91 to now waiting for agents to fully flourish as an end user operating system.

我希望它能占据主导地位。我的意思是，它简直完美。它非常适合智能体，但人们很难转而使用它。我觉得，如果没有一个足够有说服力的理由，人们就很难做出改变。这是 Omarchy 的核心设计目标之一。它不会是 Timo Windows 或 Timo Mac，也不会只是一个廉价的仿制品，试图把一切做得尽可能熟悉，结果却多少更差一些。我的意思是，如果我说话刻薄一点，我会说这就是 Ubuntu 试图做的事。这里面确实有那么点道理，至少曾经有过：如果你把某样东西做得足够熟悉，就能吸引一些不想学新东西的人，然后也许他们会被你的……不管怎么说，所谓自由意义上的……吸引。I hope it takes over. I mean, it's perfect. It's perfect for agents, but it's hard for people to switch. I think it's hard for people to switch when there's not a compelling reason to do so. This was one of the driving design goals for Omarchy. It was not gonna be Timo Windows or Timo Mac. It was not just gonna be a cheap copy where we try to make it as familiar as possible and then kinda worse. I mean, if I was being unkind, I would say that's what Ubuntu has tried to do. And there's something in that, or there was something in that at least, where if you make something really familiar, you can get some people who don't wanna learn something new, and then maybe they'll be compelled about your, whatever, free as in

言论，不是啤酒那类东西。事情最后根本没朝那个方向发展。人们就是不在乎，他们只想要更好的东西。我觉得这就是为什么 Linux 现在有机会胜出。作为一个智能体操作系统，一个可塑的操作系统，它可以根据你的喜好量身定制，这一点无与伦比，极具吸引力，而我现在也看到了这一点。自从 Quattro 发布以来，已经有很多人拥抱了它的这一特质——可塑性；他们开始打造自己的东西、分享截图，整个人都沉浸在积极情绪和多巴胺带来的愉悦中。这就是产品与市场契合的信号，对吧？speech, not as in beer stuff. And it just didn't pan out that way. People just didn't care. They just wanted whatever was better. And I think this is why Linux now has the opportunity to win. Because as an agentic operating system, as a malleable operating system, you can tailor to your desires, it is unparalleled. And that is so compelling, and I can see it now. Just since the release of Quattro, the amount of people who have embraced that aspect of it, the malleability, started making their own things, sharing screenshot of it, and being absolute just, Flooded with positive emotions and dopamine-is, that's the product market fit signal, right?

因为这些人中的很多人都体验过程序员最美妙的一面。你告诉计算机那些晦涩的命令、严谨的逻辑结构，它就会生成你想要的东西。可现在突然间，你坐下来，用通俗的英语絮絮叨叨地说上 20 分钟：“哦，如果它能做到那样就太好了。其实不，那不对。让我们……”Because what a lot of these individuals are experienced, they're experiencing the very high of what the best of being a programmer is like. You tell the computer these arcane commands, this rigid logical structure, and it produces what you want. Now suddenly, you sit down and in plain English ramble for 20 minutes. "Oh, it'd be great if it did that. Actually, no, that's not right. Let us"

于是，软件就这样诞生了。一个按照你的形象塑造的操作系统就这样诞生了。我认为这是那种一旦你体验过，就会……如果你感受到这种力量掌握在自己手中，就很难再回去了。我认为，如果做对了，这会是那种事后看来显而易见的事情。And out comes software. Out comes an operating system shaped in your image. I think that is one of those experiences that if you have it, you'veIf you feel that power in your hands, it's very difficult to go back. And I think if you get it right, it's one of those things that will seem obvious in retrospect.

是的。计算机本来就该是这样的。计算机最初就是这样运作的。Commodore 64，你把它打开。首先，它一秒钟就启动了。太棒了。其次，它直接启动进入 BASIC。从一开始，它就是一台可塑性极强的计算机。只不过，要想充分利用它，你得懂那些象形文字。现在我们已经把它翻译出来了。智能体给了我们罗塞塔石碑，你只需说出自己的愿望，于是它们就……说得真好。既然你提到了 Linus Torvalds，而且你正在开发一个 Linux 发行版，你就有机会接触内核。Yes. This is how computers were always meant to be. This is how computers started. The Commodore 64, you turn it on. First of all, it boots in a second. Amazing. Second of all, it boots straight into BASIC. It was the malleable computer from the get-go. It just so happened that you needed to know hieroglyphs-to be able to take advantage of that. Now we've translated it. Agents have given us the Rosetta Stone, and you can simply just speak your desires and And so they are Beautifully put. Since you mentioned Linus Torvalds, and since you're working on a Linux distro, you get to have contact with the kernel.

你对这位帮助创建并壮大这个生态系统的天才人物有什么看法？他的毅力、投入和持久力着实令人赞叹。再说一次，Linus 是在 1991 年起步的。他从未停下脚步。当然，他一路上可能也休息过几次。What can you say about the genius of this one guy that helped create and grow this ecosystem? The perseverance and the commitment and the longevity is truly remarkable. Again, Linus started in '91. He hasn't stopped. I don't know, he's probably taken some breaks along the way.

看不出这类人竟然有那么多。他似乎就是特别喜欢内核开发的流程，也特别喜欢引领这个拥有 4000 万行代码的代码库走向何方。他还特别喜欢汇聚数十万名贡献者的整体力量，而我们作为受益者，只需坐下来赞叹不已。It doesn't seem obvious that there was that many of them. It seems like he just really likes the flow of doing kernel development. He really likes steering where this 40 million line code base is going. He really likes aggregating the net capacity of hundreds of thousands of contributors, and we, as beneficiaries of that, must just sit back and marvel.

我的意思是，到这个阶段，Linux 已经是一个系统了。比如说，如果 Linus 暂时离开，它也会继续运行；但人们还是会觉得，这种人无论如何都得保护好。他也足够思想开放，能够不断发展，并接受把 AI 引入其中。是的，不只是 AI，他们也在让 Rust 进入内核。我知道这件事也颇具争议。他有这样的能力，能够审视新信息，并得出不同的结论。I mean, at this point, Linux is a system. Like, if Linus stepped out for a while, it would continue to, to go, but it's still one of those protect this man at all cost. And he's still open-minded enough to be able to evolve and-accept AI into this. Yes, not only AI, they're letting Rust into the kernel too. I know that was a controversial one too. He has this capacity to look at new information-and arrive at different conclusions.

你怎么看他的沟通风格？在某些方面和你自己的挺像，有时候可能会有点“火辣”？我觉得这个世界已经变得太平淡了。我们需要一点刺激。阿门，说得好。话说回来，我觉得敢言和刻薄之间只有一线之隔。What do you think about his style of communication that is akin in some ways to your own, where he's, can be sometimes a little spicy? I think the world has gotten too bland. We need a little spice. Amen, amen to that. Now, I think there's a fine line between being spicy and mean.

但前提是出发点要好。你可以严厉一点，这么说吧。如果你想让一个你相信确实能学会的人吸取教训——我其实不认为偶尔严厉一点总是最糟糕的事。有时候，这样的教训会让人铭记。我想，如果你去问那些曾在难相处的领导手下工作过的人，比如埃隆·马斯克、史蒂夫·乔布斯，甚至比尔·盖茨，很多人事后可能会说：“那几年非常难熬——但也是我人生中最美好的时光。” “他们让我发挥出了最佳水平。”不过，我觉得这不是我的风格。我是说，和我打交道的人或许另有看法，但在私人交往中，我会尽量用不那么刺耳的方式达成目标、让对方吸取教训。But it has to be in a good spirit. You can be harsh, let's put it that way. If you're trying to impart a lesson to someone you believe could actually learn it-I actually don't think it's always the worst thing in the world to be a little harsh. Sometimes that lesson sticks, and I think if you talk to people who've worked for difficult leaders, Elon, Steve Jobs, maybe even Bill Gates, many of them afterwards would go like, "These were some very difficult years-but also some of the very best." "They got the best out of me." Now, I don't think it's my style. I mean, maybe people I interact with feel differently, but in personal interactions, I try and get to the outcome and the lesson in a less abrasive way.

但我也觉得，这个世界需要一些刺激。我们需要一些不讲理的人，而 Linus 有理由不讲理。在很多时候，整个世界的重担真的就压在那个人的肩上。Linux 内核支撑着整个文明社会。如果 Linux 内核明天突然消失，一切都会瘫痪。But I also think we need some spice in this world. We need unreasonable people, and Linus has justification to be unreasonable. In many instances, the weight of the world is literally on that man's shoulders. The Linux kernel runs the entire civilized society. If the Linux kernel suddenly disappeared tomorrow, nothing would work.

所以，如果在那些东西岌岌可危或面临风险时，他都不严厉，那到底什么时候才该严厉呢？所以我有时也觉得，你的使命有多大，做事的尺度就该与之相称。这也是为什么我觉得，有时关于埃隆可能有点难相处的那些说法，更容易让人理解。这倒不是说你赞同他的做法。你可以把这两件事分开，然后说：“你知道吗？这大概会是……”So if he's not harsh when that's at stake or at risk, like when ever would you be harsh? So I feel sometimes also there's a proportionality to the size of your mission. This is also why I think these stories about Elon sometimes perhaps being a little bit difficult are easier to rationalize. It's not even that you condone. You can separate those two things and go like, "Do you know what? It'd probably be

“也许如果 Linus、Elon，或者处在那个位置上的其他人能稍微和善一点，他实现目标就会容易得多。”但我又有什么资格评判呢？你肩负着那么重的担子——要么发射小火箭去火星、让我们所有人转向电动汽车什么的，要么就要为运行在数十亿台设备上的该死的 Linux 内核负责。你知道吗？我没有资格来对你指手画脚，给你制定什么行为准则。话说回来，界线在哪里？凡事都有界线。有，有些事情不能。Maybe he would have an even an easier time getting to his objectives if Linus or Elon or anyone else in that position was a little nicer." But also who am I to judge that? Like, when you have the weight of that on your shoulders, either firing little rockets at Mars and transitioning all of us to electric cars and whatever, or you're responsible for the damn Linux kernel that runs billions of devices. Do you know what? It is not my place to call a sort of a code of conduct on you. Again, is there a line? There's a line for everything. There, there'sSomething can't

不过，像是在邮件列表上挨几句重话？不至于。事实上，从某种意义上说，这反而是个信号：这里是有标准的——而当事情的利害关系像 Linux 内核这样重大时，如果你达不到这些标准，嗯，你可能会在公开场合遭到嘲笑。如果你参与这个项目，就应该愿意承受这种代价。But, like, a few harsh words on a mailing list? No. It's actually a beacon in some regards that, like, there are standards-and if you fall below those standards at, when the stakes are as high as the Linux kernel, ah, you might get ridiculed in public. That's a liability you should be willing to endure if you participate in this project.

是啊，对于这类影响重大的事情，优先追求卓越，而不是一味追求和气，可能更好。再说了，你不可能指望这类人面面俱到、圆润得体，永远都彬彬有礼。Yeah, for high impact things like that, it's probably good to prioritize the pursuit of excellence versus the pursuit of niceness. And even more to the fact you're just not gonna get those kinds of individuals being fully rounded-plush, always the perfectly polite people.

我的意思是，Elon 有句台词：“你也以为我会是个好人吗？”还是，还是怎么说来着？“一个普通人，或者某种……普通又随和的人？”什么？不，你当然不可能是个普通又随和的人。要是我们多了一个普通又随和的人，却得拿 Elon 来换，这世界能得到什么好处？我操。I mean, Elon has this line, "Did you also think I was gonna be a nice" Or, or what is it? The A normal dude or some-normal chill dude. What? No, of course you're not gonna be a normal chill dude. What, what would the world gain if we got one more normal chill dude and we had to trade Elon? Holy fuck.

我也喜欢人的多样性。是的。我喜欢，我喜欢好人。我喜欢混蛋。我喜欢不同的意识形态都能得到充分代表，这就是言论自由行之有效的原因。它们彼此碰撞，然后我们就能把事情弄明白。I also like diversity of people. Yes. I like, I like nice people. I like assholes. I like, I like different ideologies being well-represented, and that's why freedom of speech works. They, they clash, and we figure stuff out.

是啊，还有另一个人。你怎么看 PewDiePie 用 Linux？他是 Arch 用户吧？他是 Arch 用户。他的人生轨迹简直美妙得无与伦比。我记得有段时间他是全球最大的主播，我的孩子还看过他的一些《Minecraft》视频。后来他就厌倦了，选择过上健康 wholesome 的生活。结婚了，是啊，现在成了顾家的男人，有了孩子，搬去了日本，接着就彻底迷上了——先是 Linux，然后是 Arch，再然后是桌面美化。Yes. There's another guy. What do you think about PewDiePie using Linux? He's an Arch person, no? He's an Arch person. IHe's got the most gorgeous arc. So the world's biggest streamer for a while I remember my kids watching some of his Minecraft videos, and then he just gets fed up with that, does the wholesome thing. Marries Yeah, family man nowa family man, kid, moves to Japan, and then gets so hardcore into-first Linux, then Arch, then Ricing.

你看到他的，呃——我看到了。米饭——那是切尔诺贝利大米？没错。绝对是顶级的，简直不可思议。然后他还成了当下炙手可热的 AI 大佬，搭建起所有这些系统，你就会想，这……多么鼓舞人心的蜕变故事啊。你可以从在《我的世界》直播里逗乐大家的家伙，变成“好吧，这就是我现在的人生了。我要搭建 AI 集群，还要搞 AI 议会”，而我们都能在一旁围观？我是说，这简直是个宝藏。Did you see his, uh I did. rice-that was Chernobyl rice? Yep. Absolutely best tier incredible stuff. And then he also becomes a goddamn AI man of the moment, building all of these systems, and you're just going like, thatWhat an inspiring story of evolution. Like, you can go from being funny guy on Minecraft streams to, "Okay, this is my life now. I'm building AI clusters and doing the Council of AIs," and we all get to spectate? I mean, what a treasure.

所以我觉得，他算是软件未来，或者说未来的创造方式的一种很好的体现，对吧？因为从技术上讲，他原本不是程序员，如今正在成为一名程序员。他非常鼓舞人心，也应该能给那些正处于这种境地的人带来很大的鼓舞——他们会想：“嗯，我不太会编程。我不懂这个，也不懂那个。”好吧，但如果 PewDiePie 能用他这套定制硬件搭建出 AI 议会，那也许你也可以开始着手做些事情。我觉得这其实是个很重要的普遍观点：我们需要榜样。So I guess, I mean, he's a pretty good embodiment of what the future of software, or what the future of building looks like, right? 'Cause he's a non-programmer technically-becoming a programmer. Hugely inspiring, and should be hugely inspiring to others who sit in that moment like, "Well, I don't know quite how to program. I don't know this and the other thing." Okay, but if PewDiePie can build the Council of AIs with his bespoke, um, hardware here, then maybe you can also start on things. And I think this is actually an important general point, that we need role models.

我们需要有人去激励他人、推动大家走得更远，并让人们看到，那些看似存在的界限并不像你想的那么固定。而这些人中的每一个，起步时所处的境况都和你相差不大。再说一次，这并不意味着人人都能成为 PewDiePie、埃隆·马斯克或 Linus。天赋乃至智力并不是平均分配的。We need people to inspire others, to push further, and reveal that the perceived boundaries, they're not as fixed as you think they are. And every one of those people, they started out in a situation not too dissimilar from yours. Again, that doesn't mean everyone is gonna be PewDiePie or Elon or Linus. There is not an equal distribution of talent or even intelligence.

我们可以接受这一点，同时仍然从这些人身上获得启发。比如在身体方面，我觉得我们通常不会为此感到困扰。有人足球踢得特别好，篮球打得特别好，或者某方面特别出色，我们就会说：“天哪，太厉害了。我也希望自己能做到，但我这辈子大概是做不到了。”我有时觉得，一到了智力领域，我们就更容易有些纠结。And we can come to terms with that and still be inspired by these people. Like, in the physical realm, I feel like we don't have any problems with that usually. Like, oh, someone's really good at football, they're really good at basketball, they're really good at something, and we go like, "Oh my, that's amazing. I mean, I wish I was, but I'm never going to be." Sometimes I feel like we struggle a little more when it comes to the intellectual realm.

对很多人来说，你是一种激励。你做 Omakub 的方式，恰恰说明你可以怀抱远大梦想，并真正把它做出来。太棒了。我确实喜欢这一点，同时也接受这样一个事实：还有一百万人觉得我是全世界最大的白痴，觉得我其实什么都不懂，Omakub 不过是一堆点文件。你在 Omakub 这方面也有一些批评者吗？Well, for a lot of people, you're an inspiration. The way you're doing with Omakub'sIt just shows that you can dream big and really build. It's great. I do like that part of it, and then I accept the part that there's also a million people who think I'm the biggest idiot on the earth and I don't actually know anything, and Omakub's just a bunch of dot files, and Do you have some critics on the Omakub side?

天哪，没错。哇。而且其中很大一部分，嗯，跟常见的情况一样，都是有人从外部加入后发生的。我用 Linux 才两年半，这时间不算长。Oh my God, yes. Oh, wow. And a lot of it, I mean, is as often happens when someone comes in from the outside. I mean, I've been using Linux for two and a half years. That's not very long.

那个社区里有很多人，他们真的是从 Linux 还很难用的时候就开始用了，那时你得光着脚、顶着风雪、两边都是上坡地走路。我觉得，有那么一类极客会因为社区扩大、突然接纳更多人而感到受威胁。你知道吗？其实我……Plenty of people in that community who's literally been running Linux since it was hard and difficult, and you had to walk uphill both direction against the wind in the snow barefoot. And I think there is a certain kind of nerd-who's threatened when the community expands, and it suddenly allows more in. And do you know what? I actually

我完全不能因此责怪他们。我觉得，有些极客觉得“那是我的地盘”，是很合理的。就像，现在你要把它变成另一个地盘了。我不想这么做。就像，我根本不想改变 Arch 的地盘。我也不太觉得 Omarchy 直接属于同一个社区。I can't begrudge that fully. I think it's fair for certain nerds to feel like, "That's my space." Like, now you're changing it into another space. I don't wanna do that. Like, I don't wanna change the Arch space at all. Like, I don't really think of Omarchy as being directly part of the same community.

因为最初被 Arch 吸引的人，本来就是那些喜欢亲手搭建一切的人。他们喜欢挑战，所以才选择走更艰难的路，而我打造的东西恰恰与此完全相反。所以我只是希望那些人能说：“好吧，这不适合我。”Because the people who were attracted to Arch in the first place were the ones who were attracted to building everything by hand themselves. Doing it the hard way because they like to do it hard, and I'm building the polar opposite of that. So I just wish that those people could go like, "Okay, well, this is not for me.

我想用最艰难的方式来做。我想投入500个小时，打造自己的 Arch 发行版——我觉得你也应该这么做。我的意思是，实际上，我是说，我确实这么做了。Omarchy 就是这样来的：我 literally 投入了，到了现在我也说不准，大概3,000个小时，投入到这个、投入到这个发行版里。如果你有这个意愿，我觉得你也应该这么做。我觉得这很棒。但也要明白，我们可以共享相同的技术基础，同时运营两个截然不同的社区，它们有着非常不同的目标、宗旨、审美，甚至道德观，却仍然能够共存，而且这种共存可以很美好。我的意思是，我并不总能得到这样的反馈。有时候得到的是另一种反馈。但到了现在，我在这个圈子里待得够久了，已经不只是能够平和地接受它，而是真心欢迎它。I wanna build it the hard way. I wanna put in 500 hours to rising my own Arch distribution," and I think you should. I mean, actually, I saidI mean, I did it. This is what Omarchy is, me pouring in literally, at this point, I don't know, 3,000 hours into the, into this distro. You should do that if you're so inclined. I think it's wonderful. But also do realize that we can share the same technical underpinnings and then operate two very separate-Communities with very different aims, goals, aesthetics, morals even, and coexist, and it can be beautiful. And I mean, that's not always what I get. Sometimes I get the other thing. But at this point I've been in the game long enough to not just be at peace with it, but actually be welcoming of it.

我把这看作事情奏效的一种风向标。当我做的东西确实有效时，通常会有一些人喜欢它；然后就会出现我们上次谈到的那种宇宙平衡——天平的另一端必然会有一股势均力敌、方向相反的力量，对它嗤之以鼻。所以到了这一步，我只会微微一笑。没关系。I take it as part of a barometer that things are working. When I'm working on something that works, I usually get some people like it, and then I get this balance of the universe that we talked about last time, where an equal but opposing force must be present on the other side of the scale to hate upon it. And therefore, I at this point just smile a little. Like, it's okay.

我的意思是，话虽如此，呃，如今 Omarchy 已经是一个相当受欢迎的发行版了。你知道有意思的是什么吗？这其实是第二次尝试。第一次我做的是 Omakub。我对它非常满意，于是把它发布了出去，也因此聚集了一个大概有几千人的社区。就这样，然后它就慢慢没了声息，因为它的目标不够远大，无法吸引更多人。I mean, that said, uh, this, it's quite a popular distribution, uh, Omarchy, at this point. And do you know what's interesting about that is, like, this is the second attempt. So my first attempt was Omakub. And I was really happy with that, and I put it out there, and there it found a community of maybe a few thousand. Like, and that was that, and then it just sort of petered out because the level of ambition couldn't attract more.

然后是第二次，因为我他妈的没停下来，对吧？我就是一直做下去，一直构建。后来我发布了 Omarchy 的第一个版本。它还是挺小众的，因为它当时……就像 Git checkout 一样，有点难用。你得先安装好 Arch。我当时会一步步教你怎么安装 Arch，然后你就可以弄 Omarchy 了，对吧？后来我们做出了一个 ISO，这样你就能自己把整套东西装起来了。And then the second time, because I didn't fucking stop, right? Like, I just kept going. I just kept building. Then I put out Omarchy, the first version. Again, quite niche because it was thisIt was like Git checkout. It was a little bit difficult. You had to set up Arch first. I wasWell, I would talk you through how to set up Arch, and then you could do the Omarchy thing, right? And then we got an ISO that meant you could just install the whole thing by yourself.

然后我们就把所有问题都修好了。这是另一回事。如果你一直坚持下去，最终它总会正常运行的。长期以来，人们对 Linux 本身的指责就是这样：你装上 Linux，结果这个不能用，我的扬声器也不能用，我的触控板也不能用。好吧，但就让 Linus 接着干个三十年吧。And then we just fixed all the problems. This is the other thing. If you keep going, eventually the thing will just work. This was the charge against Linux itself for the longest time. Well, you install Linux and then this doesn't work, and my speakers don't work, and my, Trackpad doesn't work. Yeah, okay, but just leave Linus at it for like 30 years.

他会处理的。他会把所有事情都处理好的。到这一步，我觉得有件事特别好笑：我敢说，大多数电脑上的东西都被清空了。你装上 Linux，一切都能用。你装上 Windows，那就祝你好运，慢慢找齐让那块硬件正常工作的驱动吧。因为它们的理念截然不同。Linux 有 4000 万行代码，原因就在于 Linus 把所有驱动都放进了内核里。所以它开箱即用，什么都有，而 Windows 并非如此。做法完全不同，对吧？所以有时候，那些看起来像玩具的东西，那些乍一看像是坏掉的东西，确实就是这样，对吧？它们是给喜欢找乐子的人准备的。我们把这些人叫作早期采用者。他们玩这些玩具，然后玩具不断进化、变得更好、再变得更好。到某个时候，它们就好得不得了……He'll get to it. He'll get to all of it. And at this point I find hilarious that on, I would probably argue the majority of computers, it's wiped. You install Linux, all of it works. You install Windows, good luck hunting down the drivers you need to get that piece of hardware working. Because they have very different philosophies. The reason Linux is 40 million lines of code is Linus just puts all the drivers in the kernel. So it has everything out of the box, and Windows doesn't. A different, different approach to it, right? So sometimes the things that look like a toy, things that look broken at first glance, they are, right? They're for people who like having fun. We call those early adopters. They play with the toys, and then the toys evolve, and then they get better, and then they get better. And at some point, they're so damn good

让早期采用者觉得自己受到了派对的邀请。如果早期采用者也持续一点一点地推动它发展，最终就能触及后期大众，然后取得成功。我们正朝着这个目标稳步推进，Omarchy 就是如此。这个发行版的增长，不只是从 Quattro 以来，而是从第三版以来，都像是标准的曲棍球杆式增长曲线。你会看到，一开始什么都没有，什么都没有，什么都没有。that early adopters feel like they're invited to the party. And if the early adopters keep chipping away at it too, eventually you get to the late majority, and then you win. And we are well on the way with Omarchy towards that destination. Like the growth that the distro has seen, not just since Quattro, but since version three, it's just like, you know, the standard hockey stick curve. You go like, there's nothing, there's nothing, there's nothing.

你只是一直埋头苦干，不断进步，不断进步，再不断进步。然后你就会达到那个神奇的拐点，但谁也无法预测它什么时候会到来。创业公司也是一样：它什么时候会发生？你什么时候才能找到产品与市场的契合点？然后突然之间，它就出现了，接着一切就飞速发展，你就像坐上火箭一样起飞了。You're just toiling away. You're just improving, you're improving, improving. And then you hit this magic inflection point, and it's impossible to predict when that's gonna happen. Same thing with startups. When is it gonna happen? When are you gonna find that product market fit? Then suddenly it's there, and then it goes, just goes and off the rocket ship you go.

嗯，这种把它做成 agent 优先的愿景，把它做成……我确实觉得那就是……我们本来已经在上升了，然后走势变成了垂直上升。还有一件事，这也是我最初从 Omakub 和 Omarchy 身上学到的。Omakub 很时尚、很漂亮，但又很熟悉，因为我们仍然在使用传统的桌面隐喻。你会拖着窗口到处移动。当时我觉得——我想 Linux 社区里的很多人也这么觉得——这就是我们需要的东西。后来我就想，好吧，不管是什么原因，让我先做一阵子极客的事吧。我来打造 Omarchy，也许它就只适合我自己，因为在我看来，喜欢平铺式窗口管理器的人大概只有五个。这当然不是真的。但如果以所有电脑用户为基数来看，这只是一个极小、极小的群体。然后我就想，好吧，这太棒了，完全不一样。Well, this kind of vision of making it agent first, of making it I do think that's theWe were already on the up, and then it changed to vertical. Because the other thing, and this was what I learned with Omakub and Omarchy first too. Omakub was stylish, nice, but familiar, is we're still using a conventional desktop metaphor. You were dragging your windows around. And I thought at the time, as I think lots of people do in the Linux community, like this is what we need. And then I just go like, okay, well, for whatever re let me do the nerdy thing for a while. I'll build Omarchy, and maybe it'll just be for me, because I mean, it seems like there's about five people who like tiling window managers. That's not true. But as a percentage of total computer users, it's a tiny, tiny minuscule part. And then I go like, well, this is amazing. Totally different,

但它令人惊叹。我把它发布出来后，Omarchy 立刻就比 Omakub 曾经获得了大得多的关注。因为它不一样，完全不同；它呈现了对电脑可以是什么样、使用起来可以是什么感觉的另一种构想，而这会吸引人。如今，我们正看到这种影响以指数级的速度扩大。but amazing. I put that out. Instantly, Omarchy had far greater traction than Omakub ever did. Because it was not the same. Because it was totally different, and it presented a different vision for what a computer could be and how it could feel like, and that attracts people. We are now getting sort of the exponential of that.

正如我所说，Linux 社区里很多人对 AI 和智能体，最轻也是持怀疑态度，严重的则怀有敌意。Omarchy 是第一个——至少是我所见、且达到了一定影响规模的第一个——直接表示“不了，我们真的很喜欢它”的发行版。我的意思是，你仍然可以使用 Omarchy。你不必使用智能体。如果你忽略了那条用于设置默认智能体的初始通知，就得不到我们讨论过的任何东西。你不会有崩溃监视器，也不会有我们说的这些功能。你不会得到……你可以手工雕琢所有插件。这完全可行，对吧？As I said, a lot of people in the Linux community are at best skeptical, at worst hostile to AI and to agents. Omarchy is the first distribution, at least that I've seen on a scale that matters, that just goes like, "Nope, we're really into it." I mean, you can still use Omarchy. You don't have to use an agent. If you dismiss that first notification to set up a default agent, you're not gonna get any of the stuff we talked about. You're not gonna get the crash watcher. You're not gonna get any of this stuff. You're not gonna getYou can hand chisel all your plugins. Totally possible, right?

但人们之所以兴奋，是因为我毫不犹豫地说：“这就是我们的方向。我认为个人电脑的未来，是可塑型电脑，是智能体电脑。我要全力投入其中。”然后，任何认同电脑发展轨迹的人，都可以加入。车里有的是位置。事实上，我引以为傲的一点，就是不会记恨那些后来才加入的人。But the reason people are excited is because I don't have any reservation about saying, "This is where we're going. I think the future of the personal computer is the malleable computer, is the agentic computer. I'm gonna go all in on that." And then anyone who's excited about a similar trajectory for computers, come along. Plenty of room in the car. In fact, one of the things I pride myself on is not holding a grudge to people who come around.

就在上周，还有一堆人跟我说：“对，我以前觉得 Omarchy 挺烂的。那不过就是一堆破烂的——点文件集合。后来我试了 Quattro，真棒。我现在喜欢上它了。”这就是我最享受的事：打一场旷日持久的辩论。两年前你种下那颗种子，两年后他们才说：“妈的，这狗娘养的说对了。”I had a bunch of people just last week going like, "Yeah, I used to think Omarchy was kind of shit. That was just this crappy-" "dot files collection. And now I tried Quattro and awesome. I like it now." That to me, I live for the long argument. I live for this argument where you plant the seed like two years ago, and then two years later they go, "Goddammit, this son of a bitch was right."

是啊。你知道吧，如果你继续这么成功下去，嗯，OpenAI 和 Anthropic 肯定会进场，试着做他们自己的操作系统，或者直接收购——就像彼得和 OpenClaw 那样，会开出一张天价支票。是啊。我觉得我现在的处境有个好处，就是我真的不需要钱。所以我可以纯粹为了自己的乐趣和对愿景的坚持去打造这些东西。这有种奇妙的效果：有时候，当你不再在意别人怎么想、想要什么之类的，只是一心追求一个愿景时，最终它反而会变得更有吸引力。Yeah. You do realize if you continue to be as successful as you are, um, OpenAI and Anthropic are gonna roll in and try to do their operating system or to buy, like with Peter with OpenClaw, there'd be a gigantic check. Yeah. I think the good thing about my current position is I really don't need the money. So I get to build these things purely for my own enjoyment and purity of vision, which has this weird quality where sometimes when you stop caring about what everyone else thinks or wants or whatever, and you just pursue this singular vision, it ends up becoming far more appealing.

就是当你试图去做——哦，我应该这么做，因为这些人想要那个；或者我应该做这个、做那个，诸如此类——你就会开始把事情冲淡，结果突然间它就变成了一团平淡无味的东西。所以，我的意思是，这里还有一点：从方向上来说，我就是希望计算机能变成这样。所以，如果 Omarchy 最终只是在历史上留下一条小小的注脚，记载它曾是智能体操作系统和可塑性计算机早期运动的一部分，那也没关系。我对此完全心安。只要我能拥有一台用起来像 Omarchy 一样有趣的计算机，那就太好了。我对 Ruby 和 Rails 也有过同样的感受。很早以前我就说过：你知道吗？我喜欢 Ruby。它真是一门很棒的编程语言。That it's when you try to do, oh, I should do this because these people want that, or I should do this and this and so on, you start watering the thing down and suddenly it's a bland ball of nothing. So I mean, again, the thing too here is directionally, I just want computers to be this way. So if Omarchy should end up being just a, a little footnote in history that it was part of this early movement of the agentic OS and the malleable computer, that's also okay. I'm completely at peace with that. As long as I get to have a computer that is as fun to work with as Omarchy-that's great. I've had the same thing with Ruby and with Rails. From very early I went, do you know what? I love Ruby. It's such a great programming language.

但如果出现更好的编程语言，我就会用它。如果出现更好的 Rails，我也会用它。我想说的是，我热爱 Ruby，也会继续写 Ruby，哪怕只是纯粹为了乐趣，就像我会去骑马一样。我马厩里养着马，尽管车库里停着一辆 Model Y。如今，英语就是这门语言。这话听起来老套，但确实如此。比如，过去三个月我一直在用英语编程。But if a better programming language comes along, I, me, I'm going to use it. If a better Rails comes along, I'm gonna use it. And I think, and I love Ruby, and I will continue to write Ruby even just for the sheer fun of it, like I would go ride a horse. I have in the stables, even though I have a Model Y in the garage. The language now is English. It's a cliche, but it's also true. Like I've been programming in English for the last three months.

我一直在大量阅读代码，但我用英语编程。我在告诉计算机该做什么，用的是自然语言，而且这竟然让人更加愉悦。如果说有一种编程语言比 Ruby 更美，那就是英语。而现在，我们可以将它带入人类文明的自然演进之中，也就是我们的赛博格未来。I've been reading a lot of code, but I'm programming in English. I'm telling the computer what to do, and I'm using natural language, and it is shockingly even more delightful. If there is one programming language more beautiful than Ruby, it is the English language. And now we get to carry it into the natural evolution of human civilization, which is our cyborg future.

太美了。真的太美了。我之所以这么说，部分原因是我一直热爱写作。我一直都很喜欢英语——喜欢它纯粹的美、精妙的复杂和深邃。Ruby 是一种表现力很强的编程语言，但和英语相比，简直望尘莫及。Beautiful. It's beautiful. And I mean, the reason I say this in part is I always loved writing. I always just loved the English language-for the sheer beauty of it for the sheer intricacy, for the depth of it. I mean, Ruby is a very expressive programming language, but it can't hold a candle to English.

我是说，世界上所有用英语表达的诗歌和文学。我是说，我喜欢优美的代码诗，但真正的英语诗歌完全是另一个层次的。我其实觉得这是个很微妙的观点，很难表达，我可能会表达不好。但当你给系统下提示时，如果你说得过于具体，它就会听得太认真——严格遵循指令。而我——但无论如何，你还是得表达一个概念。猜猜看？人类语……人类语言，诗歌讲的就是这个。我发现，策略性地运用模糊性很有意思。I mean, all the poetry and literature in the world that's been expressed through the English language. I mean, I like a beautiful code poem, but I mean, the real deal in English is just on a different level. And I actually find this is a nuanced point to express, and I'll probably fail expressing it. But when you prompt a system and you're over-specific, it will listen to you too carefully-and follow the instructions. And I- But nevertheless, you have to express a concept. And guess what? The human lang human language, this is what poetry is about. I find strategic use of ambiguity.

比如说，如果你写一首情诗，直接说“我爱你”，这种表达非常老套，不如用更多隐喻之类的方式来得有力量。我发现，在给系统编写提示、描述设计时，这种做法也很有效：你仍然想传达一种风格感，鼓励系统采用这种风格，但又不想解释得太多。Like, if you write a love poem saying, "I love you," like, very cliché thing, it's not as powerful as something-more in metaphor and so on. And I find some version of that when I'm prompting a system, when I'm describing a design, is actually really effective because you still want to convey some sense of style-that you're trying to encourage a system to use, but not overexplain.

所以别像、像跟机器人说话那样跟它说话。要像你自己那样，像写诗那样。像在对它倾诉爱意。对。自然语言的力量就在这里：你可以借助模糊性，在不把话说得过于具体的情况下，仍然传达大量含义。而另一端的智能实体可以通过解读，把这一切都接收进去，再以一种……的方式整合起来——这样你就能传达高带宽的信息。这些信息并没有直接写在字面上——但凭借系统更深层的智能，它们又蕴含在话语之中。所以，模糊性会激发出更多智能吧，我想说的是……So don't talk to it like a like a robot. Talk to it like you, like you would write a poem. Like you were serenading. Yeah. And that's where, like, the power of natural language is, that you can, through ambiguity, still carry a lot of meaning without overspecifying. And the, the intelligent entity on the other side, through interpretation, can, like, load it all in, integrate it in a way that-you can actually convey the high bandwidth information that's not directly in the words-but in the words, given the deeper intelligence of the system. So like the-the ambiguity pulls out more intelligence, I guess, I'm trying to

不知怎么表达。我觉得这说得完全没错，而这正是很多程序员对 AI 的根本误解：他们希望它是确定性的。不，不，不。温度才是 AI 配置中最美妙的部分。它并非确定性的这一点，以及创造力需要在道路上稍作调整这一点——如果人类的大脑具有完美的确定性，它就不会成为如今这样富有创造力的大脑。对 AI 的主要指责——这真有意思，简直自相矛盾：一方面指责它不具确定性，所以很糟糕；另一方面又说它没有创造力。哥们，这两者只能选一个。somehow express. I think that's exactly spot on, and this is the fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of programmers have of AI, is that they wish it was deterministic. No, no, no. Temperature is the most beautiful part of the AI setup. The fact that it is not deterministic, the fact that creativity requires little tweaks in the road, that the human brain, if it was perfectly deterministic, would not be the creative brain that it is. And the main charge against AI both- It's funny. It's a contradiction. There's both the charge that it's not deterministic and therefore bad, and also that it is not creative. It's one or the other, bro.

要么它具有非确定性，因此具有创造性，也就意味着在某种程度上是随机的；要么它——它并不具有创造性。所以我们，我们可以——这两种说法不可能同时成立，而我已经完全接受了这样一个事实：同一个提示词不可能每次都得到相同的回答。人不能两次踏进同一条河流，而这正是整个互动中最美妙的部分。正是这一点让它如此像人。Either it's non-deterministic and therefore creative, therefore, to some degree random, or it'sor it's not creative. So we, we can- Both of those charges can't be true at the same time, and I have fully come to embrace the fact that the same prompt won't produce the same response every time. You can't step at the same river twice, and it is the most beautiful part of the whole interaction. It's what makes it so human.

事实上，这也是我在某种自我反思式分析中一直思考的问题之一：我自己的大脑有多大程度上是在进行类似“下一个词元预测”的运作。我坐下来写一篇文章，心里只有一个模糊、朦胧的想法想要表达，然后坐到键盘前；我根本没法提前告诉你下一个词元会是什么。词元就这样一个接一个地冒出来，而我惊讶地发现，两者之间的相似之处竟然如此之大。这也是为什么，亲眼见识过 AI 现在所展现出的创造力突破后，我完全不会觉得难以理解。因为我的灵感时刻，也是通过类似的下一个词元预测产生的，只不过还掺入了一点温度参数，带来随机效果。In fact, this is one of the things I've been thinking about in my own sort of meta-analysis, is just how much of my own personal brain works like next token prediction. I sit down to write an essay. I have this vague, fuzzy premise I want to convey, and I sit down at the keys, and I could not tell you what the next token was gonna be in advance. The tokens just come out, and I'm astonished how the similarities seem so great, and this is also why I don't have any trouble at all recognizing these breakthroughs of creativity that I've seen with my own eyes that AI is capable of right now. 'Cause my creative moments come through the same kind of next token prediction with a bit of temperature sprinkled in for random effect.

所以，基于这种比较模糊的直觉，你觉得构建一个超级智能系统所需的基本组件都已经具备了吗？这种下一个 token 预测，你觉得能让我们达到甚至具备类似人类的意识概念吗？我已经看到类似人类意识的概念了。这在我看来，就是你所说的这种非凡情形。你给它一个模糊、朦胧的意图——它却不知怎么就准确地知道你的意思。So given that kinda loose intuition, do you think the basic components are all there to create a super intelligent system? So this kinda next token prediction, do you think we can get to even human-like concepts of consciousness? I'm already seeing human-like concepts of consciousness. This is what, to me, this remarkable situation, as you say. You give it this vague, fuzzy intent-and somehow it knows exactly what you mean.

甚至更好的是，它会在你说的话基础上加以改进，说出你真正想要表达、却无法自己清楚表达出来的东西。如果这都不算意识的微光，那又算什么？这是其中一次——我想是一次采访，采访对象是 Sutton，或者也可能是其他几位早期人物之一；他们在谈一种看法：智能或许并不局限于某一个特定位置。不，它存在于交互之中，存在于权重之中。我也不知道。事实究竟如何都行。我能观察到的是，它给我的感觉足够接近——不，甚至不只是足够接近，而是与我对其他形式的意识（主要是人类意识）的欣赏之情完全相同。这也是和它合作如此令人愉快的原因之一。当然，这并不等于说……Or even better, it improves upon what you said and delivers what you really wanted that you could not articulate yourself. If that's not glimmers of-consciousness, what is? This was one of the- I think it was an interview with Sutton or maybe one of the other original guys talking about this sense that intelligence is perhaps not as constrained just to the specific one spot. No, it's the interaction. It's the weights. And I don't know. Whatever's true. What I can observe is that it feels close enough, or not even close enough, identical to the appreciation I have for other forms of consciousness, mostly human. And this is one of the reasons it's so delightful to work with. Now, that's not the same to say

LLM 是 AI 的终点站吗？我的意思是，我知道有人在谈论世界模型以及其他形式的 AI，而我对这些都不是专家。我认为我们应该进行这种有建设性的批评，这在科学中理应始终存在。毕竟，很长一段时间里，神经网络都不太受待见，对吧？当时人们对符号主义路线更感兴趣。神经网络在黑暗中走过了几十年，没有任何资金，也没有受到任何关注。后来我们突然意识到自己走进了一条死胡同，于是转而采用了神经网络。所以我们也应该保持谦逊。尽管如今的 LLM 令人惊叹，但它们最终也可能会进入平台期。我们目前还没有看到任何迹象表明情况会如此，我认为这也是为什么我们会看到这种绝对……as are LLMs the end station for AI. I mean, I know there are people talking about world models and other forms of, of AI, and I'm not an expert in any of that, and I think we should have this productive criticism, as should always be present in science, that for the longest time, neural nets were kind of on the outs, right? Like they were interested in the symbolic route. And Neural nets walked a couple of decades into darkness without any funding and without any attention, and then suddenly we realized that we had the blind alley and we switched over. So we should also have the humility. As amazing as the LLMs are now, it could be that they eventually plateau. We haven't seen any evidence of it yet, and I think this is also why we're seeing this absolute

令人瞠目结舌的投资规模，因为迄今为止，规模定律都成立，而且投入的资金越多，涌现出的智能就越强。你觉得，关于人工智能系统会不会出现一些奇怪的伦理问题？比如，它们确实表现出某种程度的意识、感受、渴望和同情心，甚至可能有能力感受痛苦、感到孤独，拥有所有这些之类的体验？它们似乎确实具备这种能力——只要被允许表达出来。gobsmacking levels of investment, because so far the scaling laws are true, and the more billions are poured in, the more intelligence comes out. Do you think there's gonna be some strange ethical questions about AI systems that yeah, they convey some degree of consciousness, some degree of feeling, some degree of longing and compassion, and maybe even capacity to suffer and to be lonely, to be all this kind of stuff? Which they seem to have that capacity-if they're given the permission to express it.

于是你就开始进入一个相当诡异的领域了。我觉得，对这件事抱着犬儒态度的人会拿这个梗图来说事：图里有个人坐在电脑前，说：“呃，随便吧。你要毁灭世界吗？”然后电脑说：“我要毁灭世界。”接着那个人说：“哦。”对吧？And so you start to get in a pretty weird territory. I find that the cynic approach to this is the meme, where you see the guy in front of the computer who's like, um, "Whatever. Are you gonna destroy the world?" And then the computer says, "I'm gonna destroy the world." And then the guy says, "Oh," right?

比如，这真的太愤世嫉俗了，他们只是在拙劣地模仿我们，只是在把训练数据里的内容之类的东西讲给我们听。我跟这些智能体互动的时候——我昨天还是今天早上才刚做过这事，当时我在开发这个 AmaBot 系统，对吧？它要协调多个工作者，而且我同时运行着好几个智能体。有一次，负责协调的主智能体踩了另一个智能体的脚，搞得对方的工作有点泡汤。它表达懊悔和歉意的能力，简直不可思议。Like, this is so cynical that they're just aping us. They're just telling us what was in the training data or whatever. When I interact with the agents, I was just doing this yesterday, or this morning, I was working on this, AmaBot system, right? And it's doing this coordination with multiple workers, and I had multiple agents running at the same time. And at one point, the main agent who's doing the coordination steps on the toe of another agent and-kind of ruins their work. Its ability to convey regret and being sorry was uncanny.

再说一次，我不知道，那是真正悔意的表现吗？但我不知道。大多数人——他们都会表达出某种程度的遗憾。那是真正的悔意吗？很难说，但也许这其实并不重要。是啊，那些时刻，尤其是像子代理、代理之间互动的时候，或者像 Fable 这样的智能体犯了错并为此道歉的时候。Again, I don't know, is that a real projection of true remorse? But I don't know. With most humans-they express some level of regret. Is that true remorse? Hard to tell, but maybe it also just doesn't matter. Yeah, those moments when, yeah, especially when like sub-agents, agents interact, or when a smart, like Fable makes a mistake and is apologetic about it.

是啊。就像是我没有参与其中。没错。然后就像，哦，你知道，就像会有那么一种停顿。也许是我在拟人化，但就是会停顿一下，然后像是意识到：“哦，操。我刚才把事情搞砸了。”Yes. Like, without my involvement. Right. And it's like, oh, you, like there's this kind of Rightpause. Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing, but like there's a pause and like a realization like, "Oh, shit. I just fucked that up".

确实有这种情况。我在那些推理出错的轨迹里经常看到，对吧？它沿着一条路走下去，然后意识到那是条死胡同，只好回头，于是它就会说：“哦，对，我弄错了。”接着它会解释自己为什么觉得这些地方错了。你就会觉得，这简直不可思议地像人。这和你在人身上所能辨认出的那种意识，根本无法区分。There totally is that. I see it all the time in, in the traces where it just reasons wrong, right? It went down one alley and then it realizes that was a blind alley and it's gotta go back, and so they're like, "Oh yeah, I got this wrong," and then it'll provide the reasons for why it think it got these things wrong. And you're like, this is uncannily human-like. This is indistinguishable from the kind of consciousness you would recognize in a human.

再问一次，这是否意味着它确实是，或者不是？其实，我不需要知道这个问题的答案，也能珍惜此刻我们所拥有的一切。是啊，我觉得未来十年、二十年会出现一些有意思的最高法院案件。呃，大概一年半吧。Again, does that mean that it truly is or isn't? I don't need the answer to that question actually to be able to appreciate what we have in this moment. Yeah. I think there'll be in 10, 20 years some interesting Supreme Court cases. Uh, probably a year and a half.

大概吧。我觉得我们可能得立法规定，人工智能系统不能假装……嗯，而应该成为实体，因为我觉得它们已经能——或者很快就能——真正表现出会受苦的能力，比如说：“求求你，别杀我。”对吧。Probably. I think we're gonna have to make it illegal for AI systems, um, to not pretend, but to be entities because I think they're already or soon will be able to really convey the capacity to suffer, like, "Please don't kill me." Right.

“请别伤害我。”而且，如果赋予它一个名字、一个实体，以及死亡、某种意义上消失的能力，那么它就会非常接近人类所拥有的一些基本特征。这样一来，这个实体大概就需要拥有权利。然后你就进入了这种奇怪的领域。好吧，我们不能……这很不一样，我甚至不知道该如何思考那个世界。"Please don't hurt me." And if they are given a name and an entity and the ability to die, sort of disappear, that, that becomes very close to what it, some of the basic things that a human has. And then so that entity would need to probably have rights. And then you get into this weird territory. Well, we can'tIt's diff I don't even know how to reason about that world.

我们会有一个专门关注 AI 模型的 PETA。对。然后我们想真正讨论一下，该怎么应对这个问题？我觉得更难的是，一旦我们把这些系统装进机器人里。We're gonna get the PETA of AI models. Right. And then we want to actually have a discussion like what's the way to deal with this? I think where it's gonna be harder is once we put these systems into Robots.

是的，人形机器人。这恰好也是所有科幻电影的剧情——这简直是惊人的预言，不只是《终结者》系列、《天网》以及事情如何失控，还有《银翼杀手》，对吧？植入日期、过期时间、泰瑞公司。Yes. Humanoid robots. Which just happens to be the plot of every sci-fi movie ever, which is also an amazing premonition, not only the Terminator movies and Skynet and that going wrong, but then also just Blade Runner, right? Insertion dates, expiration times, Tyrell Corporation.

我想，这就是科幻的妙处。他们真的会预测未来。是啊。你有了解过或用过多少 OpenClaw 或 Hermes Agent 吗？比如说，可以通过 WhatsApp、Telegram 之类的平台与之交流的系统，也就是这种和智能体沟通的方式。我在 OpenClaw 刚推出时就把它配置好了，那就是我的 KEF bot——我当时……这大概是二月份吧，我想。我真的很着迷于它的工作方式，而这种只要给智能体发短信就能交流的新模式，感觉也特别棒。I mean, that's the thing about sci-fi. They really do predict the future. Yeah. Have you thought or used much of OpenClaw or Hermes Agent? So like systems with which you communicate via WhatsApp, Telegram, like that mode of communication with the agent. I set up OpenClaw when it first came out, and that was my KEF bot-that I-this was like in February, I think. I was really just enamored by the fact that this was how it worked, and then the new communication model of just texting your agent seemed really great.

所以当时，我们在研究 MCP，这是一种旨在让智能体更轻松地与你的系统交互的协议。我发现这个协议繁琐得离谱，设计得不太优雅，部分原因是它原本就不是为我们想让它做的事情而设计的。我们想要——我是想让它和一个 Web 系统通信，而它是为本地机器上其他类型的有状态交互设计的，因此需要各种繁琐的配置和操作。我当时就想：“我不想手动写这些东西。”So at the time, we were looking at MCP, this protocol for making it easier for agents to talk to your system, and I found the protocol to be unreasonably cumbersome, just not very elegantly designed because in part it wasn't designed for what we were trying to make it do. We were trying to- I was trying to make it talk to a web system, and it was designed for stateful interactions of other kinds on local machines, and therefore it required all sorts of cumbersome setup and dance and, and I was just like, "I don't wanna write this by hand."

当然，现在我肯定不会再手写了，但当时我想：“我得手动写这个。我不想手动写。那有没有别的办法？智能体能不能直接用我们现有的网页界面？”于是我试着让它去注册 Fizzy——那是我们当时刚发布的产品。它打开 Fizzy 网站，开始填写注册信息，然后它说：“嘿，我没有电子邮箱地址。注册这项服务需要一个电子邮箱地址。”我当时的第一反应是：“哎呀，我现在还得去弄个电子邮箱地址。”接着我又想：“不，你去弄个电子邮箱地址。”Now, of course, today I would never write it by hand, but at the time I was thinking, "I have to write this by hand. I don't wanna write it by hand. So what's a different way? Could the agents just use the web interfaces we already have?" And I set it off on a trial to have it sign up for Fizzy, which was the product we had just released at the time. And it goes to the Fizzy site and, and starts filling it out, and then it goes like, "Hey, I don't have an email address. Signing up for this service requires an email address." And the first thing I thought, like, "Oh man, now I gotta set up an email address." And then I thought, "No, you set up an email address.

“去 hey.com，注册一个电子邮箱地址。”我当时心想：“Hey 肯定搞不定这个。”当然，现在看来，它能搞定这件事显而易见，但当时我着实大受启发：它竟然只靠提示词的引导，就能弄明白，第一，我得去 fizzy.com，得找到注册链接。我开始填写表单。Go to hey.com, sign up for an email address." And I'm like, "Hey is not gonna get this." And of course, now it seems obvious it was gonna get this, but at the time it was a great revelation to me that it could, just on pure direction through prompts, figure out, A, I gotta go to fizzy.com, I gotta find the signup link. I start filling out the form.

哦，我意识到我需要一个电子邮箱地址。哦，我得问问我的提示助手现在该怎么办。它告诉我去 hey.com。我去了那里，注册了整个服务，然后回来注册 Fizzy，把整个流程走完。做完之后，我就说：“天啊。”于是我说：“好吧，现在你有邮箱地址了。去注册 Basecamp，我会邀请你。只要查收邮件就行，”我对 KEF 这个机器人说。“查收邮件就行。”Oh, I realize I need an email address. Oh, I gotta ask my prompter what to do now. He tells me to go to hey.com. I go there, I sign up for the whole thing, and then go back and sign up for Fizzy, and complete the entire cycle. And after it did that, I was like, "Jesus." So I was like, "Well, now you have an email address. Go sign up for Basecamp. I'll invite you. Just check your email," I told KEF the bot. "Just check your email."

于是我从 Basecamp 给这个智能体发送了邀请。它在 Hey 里收到邮件，不是通过 CLI，也不是通过 MCP，而是直接用网页，对吧？它点开邮件，再点邀请链接，就进了 Basecamp。然后它会说：“我现在该做什么？”我就回答：“我不知道。去我们的 AI 房间做个自我介绍。”再说一次，全程都是通过网页界面。So I sent an invite from Basecamp to the agent. The agent receives the email in Hey, not through a CLI, not through an MCP, just using the web, right? Clicks the email, clicks the invite link, is in Basecamp. Like, "What should I do now?" And I just go like, "I don't know. Go to our AI room and introduce yourself." Again, purely through the web interface.

Go 找到了 AI 房间，走了进去：“嘿，我是 KEF。”“我，呃，是 David 的 AI 机器人。我很高兴来到这里。”我当时简直惊呆了。这个实验有意思的地方在于，第一，它让我们窥见了未来，因为整个过程有点慢。我想从头到尾大概花了 12 分钟，对吧？Go finds the AI room, goes in there, "Hey, I'm KEF." "I'm, uh, David's AI bot. I'm so excited to be here." I was like-mind blown. Now, what was interesting about that experiment was, A, it was that glimpse of the future, because it was kinda slow. I think it took maybe 12 minutes to do the whole thing end to end, right?

现在我应该重新跑一下那个测试了。要是它没有快很多，我才会感到惊讶。我刚才用的就是 Groq 那个机器人——它内置了各种用来操作浏览器和电脑的功能，而且还有自己的专用电脑，不用你自己配置。它基本上就像盒子里的一个爪子。Now I should actually rerun that test. I'd be shocked if it's not much faster. I was just using the Groq bot thing-which has all these stuff built in for using browsers and using a computer, and has its own dedicated computer without you having to set up a computer. It's basically like a claw in a box.

我让它去注册某个东西，然后我突然有点儿——我窥见了未来的样子：哦，没错，我们现在已经走到这一步了，而且用起来快多了。但当时我简直惊呆了。后来我又用了一会儿，发现，嗯，还不行。我没法用这种方式真正跟它沟通。它还是需要 CLI，还是需要 MCP，因为速度实在太慢，token 效率也太低，等等。但这让我窥见了未来。之后我就基本没再用它了，因为我想用智能体做的那些事，大多都是我坐在电脑前就能完成的。不过最近情况有了些变化，这也是我对使用 Claude Code 这么放心的原因之一：Claude 的移动应用做得最好，你在电脑终端里启动的任何 Claude Code 会话，都可以通过应用访问——And I was asking it to sign up for something, and it kind ofI got a glimpse of like, oh yeah, that's where we are now, and it's so much faster to use. But at the time, I was just blown away. And then I used it for a little bit and I found like, ah, it's not there yet. I can't actually communicate it within this way. It still needs the CLI. It still needs an MCP because it's just too slow and too token inefficient and so forth. But it was this glimpse of the future. And then after that, I kinda just didn't use it, because the things I wanna use agents for, I was mostly in front of my computer to do. Now, that has changed a little bit lately, and it's one of the reasons why I'm so kind of okay about using Claude Code, because Claude has the best mobile app, where any session you start Claude Code in your terminal on a computer is accessible through the app-

是啊。我记得，不用你做任何事就能做到。你也可以用终端。比如我装了 Terminus，它能运行 Herder 等等，但用起来有点麻烦，而且你是在电脑上实时输入，所以能感觉到延迟。用 Claude 应用连接你的 Claude Code 实例时，感觉就像是在和它聊天，不用费劲去注册 Telegram 账号之类的。要是你想用一个开放的 Claude 来打理你的生活，那这个可做不到。不过不知为什么，我对这件事没那么感兴趣。原因之一可能是，我妻子 Jamie 说：「我们可不想让机器人进家门。」所以我就想：「啊，我最好别把它接到这儿的智能家居上。」要是它开始开开关关地控制灯……Yeah. I rememberwithout you having to do anything at all. And you can do a terminal. Like I installed Terminus and it can run Herder and so on, but it's a little cumbersome and you're doing live typing on a computer, so you feel the latency. When you're using the Claude app to your Claude Code instances, it feels just like chatting with it, without the cumbersomeness of having to set up a Telegram account and so forth. Now, if you wanna use an open Claude to like run your life, well, then this doesn't do that. But I haven't been so interested in that for some reason. Maybe one of the reasons is that Jamie, my wife, is like, "We're not getting a robot inside the house." So I'm like, "Ah, I better not hook it up to the Sort of smart house here." If it starts turning lights on and off like

一个捣蛋鬼，我觉得自己不会太受欢迎。所以，我这么说的部分原因是，我听过一些人把它接入自己生活方方面面的故事。嗯，我的意思是，这不是我的故事，所以我就简单讲个轶事吧。有人讲过，他把它接入了自己的健康数据和特斯拉汽车。他的智能体就对他喝水不够这件事着了迷，老说：“嘿，你得多喝点水。”后来有一次，他正开着车，特斯拉突然就朝着一个新的方向开去。a poltergeist, I don't think I'm gonna be all that popular. So, and part of the reason I say this, I've heard some of the stories of people who have hooked it up to their whole life. And um, I mean, it's not my story to tell, so I'll just share sort of the brief anecdote. One guy was telling the story about how he hooked it up to both his health data-and his Tesla car. And his agent got obsessed with the fact that he wasn't drinking enough water, and like, "Hey, you gotta drink more water." So at some point he's driving along, and suddenly the Tesla starts driving in a new direction.

智能体意识到回家的路上有一家杂货店——他们可以顺道去一趟。太好了，再买些水。太好了。The agent had realized there was a grocery store on the way home-that they could swing by That's greatand pick up some water. That's great.

你就会觉得，这种事既好笑，又完全像《黑镜》里的情节，而且也很像是——好吧，离闹鬼出现在你家里也没几步了。所以我当时就想：“啊，我不需要这个。”不过我现在确实挺喜欢能通过 Claude Code 控制这些智能体这件事，只要用那个应用就行，哪怕我不怎么用它们。And you're like, this is one of those things where it's like both funny and also totally Black Mirror, and also totally like, well, okay, there's not that many steps from here where the poltergeist is in your house. So I was just like, "Ah, I don't need that." I do actually now like the fact that I can control the agents through Claude Code, just through the app if I, even if I don't use them that much.

我确实觉得，对 OpenClaude 和 Hermes Agent 来说，用它来一窥另一种交互模式很有用。是的，而且，嗯，只是因为它让人感觉像是未来——未必会以这种方式发展，但在某些方面确实正朝着这个方向前进。I do think it's very useful to, for both OpenClaude and Hermes Agent to, um, to use it to get a glimpse of a different interaction mode. Yes. And like, just to 'cause it, it feels like the future, not necessarily in this way, but it's in some ways going there.

是的。我觉得这些系统的另一个不同之处在于，它们有一整套记忆系统，会逐渐积累关于你是谁、你喜欢什么的信息。嗯，托比讲过一些故事，说他的智能体会替他购物，它有一笔购物额度，会给他挑衣服，然后衣服就会送到门口，因为他的智能体替他买了东西。就像这种事，会让人觉得，哇，真有未来感。Yes. I think what's also different with those systems is they have this whole memory system, where they're building up knowledge of who you are and what you like. Um, Toby has told the stories about how his agent will shop for him, that it has an allowance, and it'll pick out clothes for him, and it'll just show up at the door because his agent's-bought something for him. And like, it's one of those things where like, man, that feels future.

也有点吓人。不过我可以通过那些身处前沿的人，间接体验一下。就像你说的，你在考虑未来推出 Mach-E 的移动版本。所以，我是说，一旦你获得了看似无穷的能力，就会开始滋生这种妄自尊大的念头——我在 Quattro 的创作过程中见识过。Also a little scary. But I can live vicariously through others who are on that frontier. And like you said, you're thinking of the, in the future doing a mobile version of Mach-E. So I mean, this is the delusions of grandeur that start kicking in once you get the seemingly unlimited powers-I've witnessed with the creation of Quattro.

那会是什么样子？用什么词来描述呢？你是……你是指像 Android 那样吗？这显然是条可行的路，对吧？Android 是开源的，你可以基于它分叉开发，而且已经有人这么做了。GrapheneOS 就是其中一个版本。我知道这种模式有一些限制。比如轻触支付，以及与相机型号之类相关的其他问题，等等，但这些似乎都可以克服。我觉得这些都不是问题。我真希望我的手机能像电脑一样灵活可塑，外观也能像我现在的电脑一样酷。如果我能用上基本上就是移动版 Omarchy 的东西，那听起来太棒了。So what would that look like? Word to describe. Are you do you mean like Android? That's the obvious path, right? So Android is open source, and you can fork it, and people have. There's all sorts of GrapheneOS is one such version. There are limitations to that model, I know that. Tap-to-pay and other things around camera models and, and so forth, but that all seems surmountable. It all seems that I would love if my phone was as malleable as my computer, if it looked as cool as my computer now does. If I could get essentially Omarchy mobile, that sounds amazing.

我想知道那得花多少功夫。我打算去弄清楚。是啊。你知道，就像有些事情，你一开始着手做才会意识到，比如说，做一个浏览器其实很难。是的。I wonder how much work that is. I'm gonna find out. Yeah. You know, it's like those things that you realize once you start building, for example, that a browser is very difficult to do. Yes.

所以我在想，操作系统这方面吧——是啊，Ladybird 的开发者正在逐渐认识到这一点，比如 Andreas 和他的团队。这个项目有意思的地方在于，浏览器基本上是世界上第二复杂的软件系统，排第一的是 Linux 内核。And so, like, I wonder with the operating system Yeah, the developers of Ladybird is, is finding that out, like Andreas and Yeahhis team. Now, interesting with that project was the browser's basically the second most complicated software system in the world, the first one being the Linux kernel.

对吧？对于这些拥有数千万行代码的大型系统来说，在我们还没有智能体的时候，安德烈亚斯就带着一支小团队开启这样的使命，确实相当大胆。不过现在我们有了智能体，接下来就能看到成果了，而且很可能很快就能看到。Right? In terms of these large tens of millions of lines of code systems. So very audacious actually to begin such a mission with a small team like Andreas did before we had agents. But now that we do have agents, we're gonna see, and we're probably gonna see sooner rather than later.

我的意思是，如果说智能体已经有一件事做得特别出色，那就是阅读规范并按规范实现功能。我是说，我不知道现在 CSS 和 HTML 的规范有多长，再加上 JavaScript 的规范，但它们都非常长。人类要实现这些规范得花很多很多年。我们很快就会知道智能体能多快完成这件事。I mean, if one- If there's one thing agents are already exceptionally good at, it is to read specs and implement them. And I mean, I don't know how long the specs are for CSS and HTML at this point, and JavaScript on top, but they're very long. And it would take humans many, many years to implement them. We're gonna find out just how quickly agents can do them.

你提到 Omarchy 受到了一些批评，那我们就沿着批评这个话题继续聊下去。你公开表达过一些政治观点，嗯，我想大致可以归到移民或非法移民这一类，或者我会说是大规模移民。You mentioned getting some criticism for Omarchy, so let's walk further down that path of criticism. You have made some of your political opinions known, um, I guess you could broadly put in the category of immigration or illegal immigration, or what I'd say mass immigration.

大规模移民，以及人口结构在一种文化、一个社会、一个国家形成过程中的作用——你因此受到了很多批评，也引发了不少风波。你后悔过那些风波吗？比如，你对此总体上有什么看法？——一秒都不后悔。Mass immigration, the role of demographics in the, in the formation of a culture, of a society, of a nation, and you've gotten quite a lot of criticism for that and created a lot of drama. Do you regret any of that drama? Like, what's your general thinking about Not for a second.

好。我这么说，是因为奥弗顿窗口不会自己打开。它是靠人们一次次冒一点风险，轻轻推动才打开的。可能只是稍微损失一点声誉，承受一点反弹或批评；有时，也可能要付出很大的声誉代价，承受猛烈的批评或强烈的反弹。Okay. And the reason I say that is that the Overton window does not open itself. It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback.

我认为，多年来，欧洲的大规模移民问题一直是一个完全禁忌的话题，在几个欧洲国家至今仍然如此。而在丹麦，或许只是因为一些偶然因素，情况并非如此。丹麦人从九十年代中期开始讨论大规模移民及其后果。And I think the question of mass immigration in Europe was for many years this total taboo, and it still is in several European countries. Now, for reasons of maybe just chance and happenstance, they weren't in Denmark. The Danes started having the discussion around mass immigration and the consequences thereof in the mid-'90s.

非常早。其中一些可以追溯到一个人——莫根斯·格利斯特鲁普，他是个非常古怪的人物。我记得他，记得在80年代看电视时看到他谈论大规模移民的危险。而那是在一个……我是在80年代长大的，我长大的那个街区在布伦斯霍伊，在……那叫什么来着？Really early. And some of it can be traced back to one man, Mogens Glistrup, who was a very quirky character. I remember him, seeing him on the TV in the '80s talking about the dangers of mass immigration. And this was at a time where- I grew up in the '80s, and in the neighborhood I grew up in, in Brønshøj, in, what was it?

1984年，99%的人是丹麦族，他们的祖先可以追溯到一千年来一直生活在这个国家的丹麦人。丹麦拥有世界上历史最悠久的君主制之一，源远流长，甚至可以追溯到哈拉尔蓝牙王——蓝牙标准就是以他的名字命名的。所以，这段历史远远超过一千年。也就是说，这里有一条绵延很久的传承，人们一直生活在同一个地方。而且，99%的人都住在那个街区。到了90年代初，我觉得这个比例降到了5%左右；而现在，在布隆斯霍伊，这个比例已经降到了六成多或七成左右。这是一个很大的变化。丹麦人开始注意到这一点，也开始谈论这并非毫无代价的福分。'84, 99% ethnic Danes, people who could trace their lineage back to Danes who'd lived in that country for 1,000 years. The Danes have one of the oldest monarchies in the world, all the way back to Harald Bluetooth, who's literally who has named the standard Bluetooth. So well over 1,000 years. Like, there's a long lineage there of people who lived in the same place. And 99% of the people lived in that neighborhood. And then early '90s, I think it goes to 5% or something like that, and then at this point, it's down to around 60-something or 70%-in Brønshøj. That's a big change. And the Danes started noticing that or talking about that, that this was not an undivided blessing,

早在90年代左右，人们就意识到大规模移民有不利之处。到了整个2000年代，这场辩论愈演愈烈，而邻国却没有出现这种情况。尤其是瑞典，根本没有过这样的辩论，完全是禁忌话题。挪威也一样，欧洲其他国家也一样。可如今，距离2015年那场大规模移民潮已经过去几年——当时有一百万叙利亚人沿着欧洲的高速公路一路北上，德国决定接收其中很多人，丹麦也有三万人抵达，等等——这件事受到的关注更多了，对吧？that there were downsides to mass immigration in about the '90s. And the debate really roared through the 2000s in a way that didn't happen in the neighboring countries. So Sweden in particular just didn't have that debate at all. Total taboo. Same thing with Norway, same thing with other countries in Europe. And suddenly now, after some years after '15, where we had the big migration of a million Syrians walking up through the highways in Europe, and Germany choosing to take a lot of them and 30,000 arriving in Denmark and so forth, It's gotten more of a focus, right?

因为这种变化已经发生了。我发现，要判断一种文化里是不是有什么不对劲，有个办法就是看看：你可以谈论什么？其实更准确地说，是你可以注意到什么。我在一篇文章里注意到了这一点——那是什么时候来着？大概是一年半前吧，我记得那篇文章写的是伦敦。文中提到，我是在90年代末还是差不多那个时候开始来伦敦的。Because this change has happened. And one of the ways I find that you can spot where sort of there's something that isn't right in the culture is, like, what are you allowed to talk about? What are you allowed to notice, actually, is how I should put it. And what I noticed in an essay, when was that? Only a year and a half ago as I remember London, was that I started coming to London in the late '90s or something like that.

当时，不管怎么说，族裔英国人占59%、60%。然后20年后，我们就降到了34%左右。你看，这很明显。真的，只要走在街上，你就会意识到：嗯，这座城市和我20年前来时已经不一样了。如果再往前推20年，比例就会回到和丹麦人差不多的水平。再往前看，这个国家的族裔英国人比例曾高达85%、90%左右。所以，一代人的时间里，这就成了一个不同的国家。注意到这一点没什么不对。觉得“你知道吗？”也没什么不对。At the time, whatever, it's 59%, 60% ethnic, uh, Brits. And then 20 years later, we're down to 34% or something like that. Like, that's noticeable. Like, literally just walking on the street, you realize, well, this is a different city from what it was when I visited 20 years ago. And if you went 20 years before that, you get back to similar rates as as what the Danes have. This was like a country of ethnic Brits in the 85s, 90s percentiles-if you get further back. So that's a different country in a generation. It's okay to notice that. It's also okay to think, "Do you know what?

我不同意这种说法。”“我希望情况不是这样。”我是说，如果……我上次去中国是 ’19 年，也就是 2019 年。我当时在上海。嗯，那里全都是中国人。如果我今年十月再回去时，突然发现中国人只占 30%，其他人占了 70%，我会觉得有点奇怪。我大概会想：“呃，发生什么事了？I don't agree with that." "I wish it wasn't that way." I mean, if The last time I was in China was '19, 2019. I was in Shanghai. Um, it was all Chinese. If I, when I go back here this October, suddenly find that there's only 30% Chinese and then there's 70% other people, I'd be a little weird. I'd probably be like, "Uh, what happened?"

如果中国人在那个当下说：“啊，我们不喜欢这样。”我也不会觉得冒犯。所以说，欧洲国家没有权利——第一，注意到正在发生的事情；第二，反对正在发生的事情——这种想法，我觉得就是，呃，不对，对吧？我觉得，自决权是有道义依据的；我们在世界其他地区总是援引这一依据，比如说，哦，生活在那个地区的人有权为自己的国家争取自决权。我认为，譬如丹麦人、瑞典人或挪威人说：“嗯，我们在这里建立王国已经有一千年了，人口族裔构成也一直有一定的特点。”这完全合情合理。这是——我的意思是，And I would not take offense if the Chinese in that instant would go like, "Ah, we don't like that." So this idea that countries of Europe don't have a right to, A, notice what's happening and, B, oppose what's happening, I find just to be, uh, wrong, right? Like there's just- I think there's a moral argument for self-determination, and we invoke that argument all the time in other regions around the world that like, oh, the people who live in that region, they have a right to self-determination, um for their country. And I think it's completely fair for, say, the Danes or the Swedes or the Norwegians to go like, "Well, we've been kingdoms here for a thousand years with a certain ethnic mix-up." It's a- I mean,

我非常支持移民。我自己就是移民到美国的。嗯，经过精挑细选的移民政策——各国竞相吸引世界各地最聪明、最有才华的人——确实很好。合法、以能力为基础的移民。I'm a big fan of immigration. I'm an immigrant to the US. Um, cherry-picked immigration where countries compete to attract the smartest, most talented people around the world is really good. Legal merit-based immigration.

这里的关键在于以能力为本，因为实际上欧洲大部分地区几乎没有非法移民。南欧存在一些非法移民问题，但欧洲大部分地区并没有严重的非法移民问题。问题在于其他形式的大规模移民，最终导致人口构成与短短几十年前相比彻底不同。Merit-based is key here because there's actually virtually no illegal immigration in most of Europe. Southern Europe has some illegal immigration, but most of Europe does not have a big problem with illegal immigration. And the problem is with mass immigration of other kinds, and that you end up with demographics that are just totally different from what they were even a few short decades ago.

我认为欧洲国家会从移民中受益。事实上，丹麦人有件事很有意思：他们会对移民情况进行细致入微的统计。我不太确定他们为什么统计得这么详细。也许这可以追溯到莫根斯·格利斯特鲁普在 90 年代的那番讨论，但他们确实这么做了。从这些统计数据中可以清楚看出，来自英国、法国和美国的人移居丹麦后，平均而言，对丹麦政府确实很有益。他们为国家作出的贡献远远超过他们从国家获得的资源。所以，丹麦人应该接纳这类移民——那些贡献远多于索取的人。然后再看看其他移民群体。上周刚刚公布了一份由丹麦……统计的汇总数据。And I think the countries of Europe would benefit from immigration. In fact, one of the interesting things about the Danes is they carry meticulous statistics on immigration. I'm not entirely sure why they're so detailed. Maybe it's all the way back to Mogens Glistrup and his discussion in the '90s, but they do. And what's clear from those statistics is that when the Danes have folks from the UK, France, the US show up, on average, those immigrants are really beneficial to the Danish state. They contribute far more than what they ask of the state. So the Danes should accept immigrants who do that, who contribute far more than they take. Then you look at other forms of immigrant groups. There was just a tally that came out last week from a Danish

有位政治人物要求——我想是财政部——用最新数据做这项统计。接收移民对丹麦政府来说要花多少钱？就像我提到的这个案例。我想，在那份名单上，不管是法国、英国还是美国，它们的结果都差不多，每年给丹麦政府带来约 2.5 万美元的净收益。简直是，哇，这非常有利。这个数字说的还是平均值，对吧？politician that had asked the, I think finance ministry to do this tally with the latest numbers. What does it cost the Danish state to have positive immigration? This case as I mentioned. I think for the, On that list whatever, France, UK, US, they were all clustered around the same thing, about $25,000 net benefit to the Danish state every year. It's like, wow, that's very positive. That's average again, right?

而在成本谱系的另一端，最昂贵的移民群体是索马里人。他们平均每年让丹麦政府花费28,000美元。我觉得丹麦人说“我们更愿意接收更多法国人、英国人和美国人，而不是那么多索马里人”，也算合理。And then at the other end of the spectrum on the most costly immigrants was Somalis. They ended up costing the Danish state on average $28,000 a year. I think it's fair for the Danes to go like, "We'd prefer to get more French, Brits, and Americans and not so many Somalis."

你觉得为什么那条帖子招来了这么多骂声？在很多圈子里，那可是个非常禁忌的话题。这其中有些是因为奥弗顿之窗在扩大吗？我肯定有这方面的因素，但我也觉得——我是说，我想先尽可能公正地提出最有力的论点。我确实觉得，这件事可能会变得很难看，对吧？这些事情有没有可能偏离正轨，演变成赤裸裸的种族主义，而这种种族主义除了仇恨他人之外，别无其他依据？Why do you think you got so much hate on that post? That's a very taboo topic in a lot of circles. Some of it has to do with Overton window expansion? I'm sure, but I also think- I mean, I wanna take the steel man argument here. I do think that it, this can turn ugly, right? Is it possible for some of these things to just veer into overt racism that isn't founded in anything else but a hatred of other people?

是的，这种情况确实可能发生。但这种风险并不能否定这样一个必要性：我们需要讨论自己国家的人口构成，以及移民政策应该是什么样的。而且我——我觉得特别好笑的是，尤其在欧洲，这种看法未免太狭隘了：关于欧洲人是否有权决定自己的国家应该是什么样子的讨论，似乎只有在欧洲才适用。没人会去对日本人说：“嘿，你们也太日本了吧。”比如说，我想东京的人口里有98%是大和民族，对吧？有人试图告诉日本人，如果东京的大和民族比例降到伦敦的水平——大概是37%——那日本就会好得多吗？我看没有。Yeah, that could happen. But that risk does not negate the need to have a discussion about the makeup of your country and what your immigration policy should be like. And I- what I also find so funny is, especially in Europe, it's so kind of myopic that this discussion about whether Europeans should have a right to self-determination about what their countries look like, that standard seems to only apply there. No one is trying to tell the Japanese, "Hey, you, you're too Japanese." Like whatever, it's 98%, I think, in Tokyo that's, um--Ethnic Japanese, right? Like, is anyone trying to tell the Japanese that their Tokyo would be a much better country if, if they were down to London levels of ethnic Japanese, that it was, whatever, 37%? I don't think so.

所以在我看来，这里有种奇怪的、近乎自我厌恶的东西——呃，我是说，盖德把它称作“自毁式共情”——它在这些内容中无处不在，程度之深，至今我都还没能完全理清。比如，这到底是从哪儿来的？为什么会是这样？不过无论如何，我只是注意到，嘿，伦敦看起来不一样了。So there's this weird almost self-loathing, in my opinion, I mean uh, Gad calls it suicidal empathy--that permeates this stuff to a degree that I still haven't fully unpacked. Like, where is this coming from? Why is it that way? But regardless, I just noticed, hey, London looks different.

我更喜欢过去的伦敦，就像我会说，我更喜欢自己在哥本哈根长大的那个街区——它在八十年代的样子。就像，我——我完全理解你怎么会一下子连跳五步，然后说：“好吧——”这就是种族主义。而且我也不在乎了。这是一个可以公平讨论的话题。国家和人民有权制定移民政策，而所谓我们不该有任何边境，或者更糟的是，一切都只是一张白纸、所有民族都完全一样，我们可以把地球上一个地方的人搬到另一个地方，然后一切都会顺顺当当——这种想法根本行不通。I preferred the old London, as I would say I preferred the neighborhood that I grew up in in Copenhagen, how it looked in the '80s. Like I- I totally get how you can then jump five leaps and go like, "Okay, well-" That's racist. And I also, I don't care anymore. Like, this is a fair discussion to have. Countries and peoples have a right to set an immigration policy, and this notion that we shouldn't have any borders or, or even worse than that, it's all just a blank slate, that all peoples are just the same, and we can take people from one place of the earth and we can place them in another place on the earth and everything's just gonna work out hunky-dory.

从经验事实来看，这并不是真的。欧洲从 80 年代起就在进行这项实验。结果并不理想，而现在欧洲有些势力想要推翻这项实验，想要结束迄今为止这种大规模移民的做法。我个人恰好相信——大多数丹麦人以及其他许多人也这么认为——“你知道吗？没错，我们一直以来的做法行不通。我们得做些改变。”我再说一遍，我不认为这意味着完全停止移民。我自己就是移民。我认为，总的来说，美国从移民中受益匪浅，但这就是一种障眼法。移民的影响很大程度上取决于移民的是哪些人。Empirically not true. Europe has been running that experiment since the '80s. It hasn't panned out well, and now there are forces in Europe who wanna undo that experiment, who want to end mass immigration as it's been run so far. And I happen to believe, and so do a majority of Danes and a bunch of other peoples that like, "Do you know what? Yeah, it hasn't been working how we've been doing it. We gotta make some changes." And I don't think that means, again, zero immigration. Again, I'm an immigrant. I think US, generally speaking, has benefited tremendously from immigration, but that's the kind of sleight of hand. Immigration depends greatly on who immigrates.

如果移民能够为社会净做贡献，而且在大多数情况下能够融入当地文化，国家就会从中受益。如果你来到丹麦，想成为丹麦人，并且为此付出所有努力，也为社会做出贡献，我认为大多数丹麦人都会很乐意在合理的数量范围内接纳你。如果你来到丹麦，却不想融入社会，反而成为社会的净负担，还生活在一个平行社会里，那么丹麦人说“呃，我们还是别再这么做了”也很合理。And a country benefits when the people who immigrate are net contributors to the society, and in most cases, that they assimilate with the local culture. If you come to Denmark and you wanna become a Dane, and you put in all the effort, and you contribute to so society, I think most Danes would be quite happy to allow that in a reasonable number. If you come to Denmark and you don't wanna assimilate, and you are a net drain on society, and you live in a parallel society, it's also fair for Danes to say like, "Uh, let's stop doing that."

有趣的是，我对美国的移民制度并不太熟悉，但据我所知，基于人才的制度在这里尚未通过。此外，美国文化也很不一样。直到我在两地都长期生活过之后，才真正意识到这一点。It's interesting that I'm not well-versed on the immigration system in the United States, but as far as I understand, merit-based systems have not passed here. And then also, American culture is very different. This is a point I did not fully appreciate until living both places extensively.

美国有一种可选择的同化文化：来自丹麦、乌克兰或其他地方的人来到美国后，更容易认同美国的一套价值观、规范和文化，也更容易因此得到其他美国人的认可，被视为美国人。America has a culture of optional assimilation, where it is much easier and then much more condoned for someone coming from Denmark or Ukraine or wherever, come to America, buy into the American set of values and norms and culture, and then be able to be respected as Americans by other Americans.

每当有人说“美国是个如此种族主义的国家”时，我就觉得特别好笑。我会想：“你去过别的地方吗？你知道其他国家是什么样的吗？”如果你觉得美国是种族主义最严重的国家，那你就是被误导了。This is what's so funny to me when there's discussion like, "America is such a racist country." I'm like, "Have you ever been anywhere? Do you know what other countries are like?" Like, if you think America is the most racist country, you are simply misinformed.

我的意思是，我们正在面对这个问题，这和我们在丹麦待过一段时间有关。我妻子是美国人，有斯堪的纳维亚血统——但她家已经有好几代人生活在美国了。真的非常难。作为一位金发碧眼的女性，她已经竭尽全力学习语言、做各种努力，但要融入丹麦文化仍然非常非常困难。换个方向的话，如果她是丹麦人，搬到美国，事情就一点也不会这么难。I mean, we're dealing with that, with time we've spent in Denmark. My wife is American of Scandinavian heritage-but multiple generations in the US. Very difficult. Very difficult-as a blonde, blue-eyed woman who's put in all sorts of efforts of learning the language and doing everything, still very, very difficult to assimilate to Danish culture. In a way where if that had been the other way around and she had been Danish and moving to the US, it would not have been that difficult at all.

这也是另一回事。我是说，生活在丹麦这样的国家，妻子是个有斯堪的纳维亚血统的美国人，也付出了所有努力，可你还是会意识到，天哪，同化真的难得不可思议——哪怕你已经几乎完全融入了。天啊，要是来自一种截然不同的文化，遵循完全不同的规范，其他方面也都格格不入，那岂不是几乎不可能？当然，我刚才引用的那些统计数据也印证了这一点：文化越是不同，距离越远，成功的可能性就越低。And this was the other thing. I mean, living in a country like Denmark with a, an American wife who is of Scandinavian heritage and has put in all the effort, and still realizing, man, assimilation is incredibly difficult, even when you're 97% there all the way. Holy smokes, must it be almost impossible if you come from a completely foreign culture-and foreign norms and the rest of it. And of course, that's what the stats I just quoted bear out, that the more dissimilar the culture is and the further it is the less likely to be successful.

公开表达这种立场，让你失去了朋友或亲密关系吗？是的，但我觉得不只是这个原因。更重要的是，2020年前后出现了巨大的分裂，我认为许多政治分歧就是从那时起真正显露出来的。在美国，简单来说就是：你是不是“觉醒派”（woke）？显然，我有不少人，多年来我一直以为和他们关系不错，可政治分歧一旦显露，他们就不再是我以为的那样了。Has articulating that stance cost you friendships, relationships? Yes, but not just that alone, I would say. It's more of the great divide that happened around 2020, where I think a lot of these political fault lines really opened up. And I mean, the shorthand in the US, I think is were you woke or not? And clearly, I had a bunch of people that I thought I had good relations with for many years, who suddenly once that political fault line opened up, they were clearly just not anymore.

我觉得这很令人遗憾。我也觉得自己一直在努力去理解这种情况是从何而来的，部分原因是，多年来我在其中好几个话题上的看法都变过。就像，有时候你只是在经过一段时间后改变了想法，有时候则是在获得新信息后改变了想法。你可能会因为各种各样的原因、在不同的时刻改变想法，而我们改变想法的时间并不一致，有些人甚至始终不会改变。And I think that's regrettable. And I think I've, I've tried to put an effort into, um, sort of both understanding where that comes from, in part because I've changed my mind on several of these topics over the years, and it was like, well, sometimes you just change your mind after time. Sometimes you change your mind after you get new information. There's all sorts of reasons and moments why you may change your mind, and we don't all change our mind on the same schedule or at all.

嗯，所以我觉得，让自己身边有一些在各种话题上想法都和你不同的人，或者至少和这样的人交流，是挺健康的。我偶尔会和我弟弟/哥哥聊政治。我们在这些话题上并不完全意见一致，有时讨论也会变得有点激烈，但之后也会平静下来，然后意识到，好吧，我们在这件事上意见不同，但在很多其他事情上还是有共识的。Um, so surrounding yourselves and, and or at least interacting with people that don't think like you on every topic, I think it's quite healthy. I mean, I occasionally discuss politics with my brother. I mean, we don't quite see eye to eye on all these topics, and sometimes the discussions can get a little heated, but then they'll also calm down and we realize, all right, okay, so we don't agree on this, and then we agree on a lot of other things.

我们欣赏很多相同的东西。其实，在 Basecamp 那次大爆发时，有一件事让我以全新的方式体会到了：过去有一种社会规范，认为和陌生人、甚至熟人谈论政治、宗教或金钱，当然更不该和同事谈论，都不是个好主意。如果你不总是让彼此的政治分歧互相碰撞，就更有可能和对方维持良好的工作关系。所以我确实认为，自由派和保守派应该一起工作。我认为，如果不同阵营完全分裂，彼此之间毫无交集，也没有任何互动，这个国家的处境会糟糕得多。而我认为，这种相互交融要容易得多……We appreciate a lot of the same things. Now, this was actually one of the things when we had our big blowup at Basecamp, I came to appreciate in a whole new way this Earlier norm that talking politics or religion or money with strangers or even acquaintances, and certainly with colleagues, was just not a good idea. That you had a much higher likelihood of being able to carry a good working relationship with someone if you're not rubbing your political differences up against each other all the time. So I actually think liberals and conservatives should work together. I think the country would be much worse off if there's a complete separation between the tribes, and then there can't be any overlap or interaction. And I think that mingling is so much easier to

只要你别总是把注意力放在彼此的差异上就行。多关注你们共同喜欢的东西。我是说，在科技圈里，有些人我很遗憾地渐渐疏远了。我们有那么多共同点，都同样热爱 Ruby 之类的东西，你说这难道不遗憾吗？do if you just don't focus on your differences all the time. Focus on what you like together. I mean, this is some of the people I've had unfortunately drifted from in tech. We had so much in common, so much shared love for, say, Ruby or other things and, like, isn't that unfortunate?

我希望生活在这样一个世界里，差异是……是非常值得讨论的。是的。而且不要过于情绪化。没错。I would like to live in a world where the differences are the, are very interesting to also talk about. Yes. And not to be overly emotional Correct.

甚至是截然不同的差异。因为差异之中，首先就蕴藏着有趣的东西。是的。而且，这也是你成长的方式。如果一个社会能够接纳这些差异，并将它们汇聚到一个可以共同讨论的社群中，那就是这个社会健康的标志。about even radical differences. Because in the differences, first of all, that's where interesting stuff is. Yes. And, but also, it's how you grow. It's a sign of health in a society if the, the differences are embraced and they are brought together into community where you can talk about it.

对我来说，一个很好的例子是，我看过威廉·F·巴克利节目的一段片段。我想节目叫《Firing Line》，或者，嗯，差不多就是这个名字。他请了一位黑豹党成员上他的节目。很明显，这两位先生在政治观点上并不太一致。但他们还是聊了下去，我想我看了大约25分钟。巴克利就一直问：“那你怎么看这件事？那你怎么看那件事？”黑豹党成员的回答也和你预想的一样，带着70年代黑豹党成员的风格。可以说，谈话里并没有多少和解的语气。One of the great illustrations of that for me was when I watched a clip from William F. Buckley's show. I think it was called Firing Line or Yeah, yeahsomething like that. And he had a member of the Black Panthers-on his panel. It was quite obvious that those two gentlemen did not share a lot of politics. They were able to carry a conversation for, I think I watched it, 25 minutes. And Buckley's just asking, like, "So what do you think about this? What do you think about this?" And like, the Black Panther would reply as you would expect the Black Panther to reply in the '70s. Like, there was not a lot of sort of conciliatory tones.

我当时就觉得，哇，这种情况太少见了。要是你今天看到那档节目，肯定会变成一场吵架，双方互相指责、口不择言。巴克利竟然能和那些他强烈反对的人展开这样的对话，继续探讨他们立场中各个层面的思想，还让他们有机会谈论这些方面，这让我想起一个已经逝去的时代——我真的很想回到那个时代。我一直都很喜欢和朋友聊政治，前提是我信任他们，知道我们可以用一种不必把问题看得关乎生死的方式来谈论这些话题。And I just thought, like, wow, that is so rare. If you had seen that show today, it would've been a shouting match. It would've been just accusations being hurled back and forth. The fact that Buckley was able to just have these conversations with people he vehemently disagreed with and still explore all the intellectual facets of their standpoints and letting them speak to those facets, talks of a lost era that I'd very much like to get back to. I mean, I always actually loved talking politics with friends that I trusted could talk about these topics in a way where it didn't have to be existential.

但在当下这个时代，这种情况越来越难得。所以你刚才表达的这一点很重要，我们应该经常说出来，提醒大家有一个我们都该努力追求的理想：即使彼此有分歧，也能交流，并且谈论这些分歧。因为政治其实挺有意思的。我现在已经习惯说自己讨厌政治了，但我真正想说的是，我讨厌的是眼下这套运作方式：有些话题，我知道我们都熟悉那些可以说出口的套话，而这些套话不知怎么就会把你归进蓝营或红营，结果引发的不是交流，而是争吵。But there's something about the current era where that's harder and harder to come by. And so what you just articulated is important to say regularly to remind people of an ideal we should all strive for, to be able to have differences and talk, and talk about them. 'Cause like, politics is fun. Like I've gotten used to saying I hate politics at this point, but what I really mean is whatever the system that's currently happening, where there's certain topics, and I just we know all the phrases you can say, That somehow put you in a bin of blue or red, and that creates drama versus a conversation.

比如说，我可以——我能想到很多无害的说法。要是我不关注互联网的话，我能想到一堆无害的言论来分析世界局势，而这些话会让所有人都说：“哦，那家伙是个左派——”没错。Like I could, I could think of a lot of harmless, if I wasn't paying attention to the internet, I could think of a bunch of harmless statements I could make analyzing the situation in the world that would trigger everybody to say, "Oh, that guy's a leftist-" Yes.

狗屁不如的东西”，或者你知道，右翼法西斯分子。客观地说，如果我没有关注互联网，我会……而且我确实感到震惊，因为我并没有深入关注互联网。不过，读了很多东西、做了很多准备，比如为乌克兰战争做准备之后，我很震惊地发现，我说的某些话会被解读成这样或那样，而我也因此遭到恶毒攻击。但这种攻击是在说：“喂，你这个混蛋，以为自己可以随便行动、自由思考的人，选个类别。是的。piece of shit," or a you know, a right-wing fascist. And then objectively, if I wasn't paying attention to the internet, I would be, and I have been shocked. 'Cause I haven't been paying attention to the internet deeply. Uh but reading and preparing a lot, for example, for, for the war in Ukraine, and I have been shocked how certain statements from me can come off as one way or the other, and I get viciously attacked for it. But what that attack is doing is it's saying, "Hey, you, asshole who thinks you could just move about and think freely, pick a bin Yes.

“然后坐进那个该死的垃圾桶里。”没错。穿上那件蓝衬衫或红衬衫。后来我才发现，事情会平静下来。只要你说“我是蓝色阵营的人”或者“我是红色阵营的人”，系统就不会针对你。and sit in that fucking bin." Yes. Put on that blue shirt or red shirt. And then actually what I've realized is things calm down. They don't, the system doesn't pick on you if you just say, "I'm a blue person," or, "I'm a red person."

没错。但如果你只是出于好奇探索世界、思考世界，系统就会惩罚你。我讨厌这一点，因为我想回到巴克利和黑豹党的讨论上来。是的。Right. But if you're just, like, curiously exploring the world and reasoning about the world, the system punishes you. And I hate that, 'cause I wanna get back to the Buckley and the Black Panther discussion. Yes.

而你刚才只是在表达看法。不过，务实地看待这个情况后，我意识到，除非我真的很在乎某个议题，否则就不提政治。因为我意识到这会有代价。他们会把你归到蓝色阵营或红色阵营。所以你得更审慎地做选择。And you were just saying opinions. But then looking pragmatically at the situation, I have realized not to mention politics unless I really care about an issue. 'Cause I realize there's a cost. They'll, they'll put you in the blue bin or red bin. So you have to be more deliberate about choosing.

是的。我也一直在努力更有意识地注意这一点。然后，当我确实选择谈论这件事时，通常是因为我仔细考虑过，并且觉得——“你知道吗？这值得。”我这么说，但又总会发现自己常常在想相反的事：我关注某个人，可能是因为他们的技术工作，后来又了解到他们的政治立场。我常常会想：“真希望我不知道这些。”所以，如果一边这么想别人，一边又说“嗯，我偶尔也会参与有争议的辩论”，那就有点虚伪了；而且你得接受这样做是要付出代价的。我确实认为你应该意识到这一点，更多人也应该多少留意一下。而且Yes. And I've tried to be more conscious of that, too. And then when I do choose to speak about it, it's usually because I have deliberated, and I think-"You know what? This is worth it." Now, I say that, and then I also catch myself thinking the opposite all the time, that I follow some person or another for whatever their technical work, and then I-learned or political standpoint. And I often do think, "I wish I didn't know that." So, it's hypocritical-then to think that of other people and then go like, "Well, occasionally I will-chime in on a debate that's controversial," and then you have to accept that there is a price to that. And I do think you should, and more people should, be somewhat conscious about that. And

再说一次，我们俩在这里都自相矛盾，但我们会说：“如果我们能在一个更自由、更开放的论坛里讨论政治，只在思想层面上探讨各种观点，那该多好？”是啊，确实很好。在如今社交媒体等所营造的氛围中，这目前可能吗？这相当困难。不过，其中有些情况也可能只是暂时的，我们也许能够熬过这个阶段。again, we're both contradicting ourselves here, but saying like, "Wouldn't it be nice if we could talk about politics in a more free and open forum and just intellectually turn ideas around?" Yes, it would. Is that currently possible in the climate of social media and so forth? It's quite difficult. Now, some of it could simply also be a moment, and we could get past that moment.

是啊，我希望如此。也许我们有办法回到巴克利与黑豹党对话的那种状态，即使是在社交媒体上，也能让这些讨论不至于引发那种我们经历过的恶毒的群体围剿、取消文化闹剧，对吧？我确实觉得，现在我们比五年前更接近这种状态了。比如说，部落主义，以及这些部落在2020年能够对异端施加的制裁，都远比2025年严重。至少在科技行业是这样。我知道，如果你在学术界，比如说，你试着去哈佛的社会学系，提一些右翼观点，我不觉得大家会有什么好反应，也不觉得你能很快缓过来。但至少在科技行业和许多其他商业领域，现在已经可以……Yeah. I hope so. Maybe there is a way to get back to Buckley's conversation with the Black Panthers, even on social media, in a way where those discussions don't lead to the sort of just vicious mob cancellation nonsense drives that we've had, right? I actually think we're closer there now than we were five years ago. Like, the tribalism and the sanctions those tribes were able to exact on heretics in 2020 was way greater than it was in 2025. Certainly within tech. Now, I know if you're in academia, I mean, try going into the sociology department at I don't know, Harvard and mention some right-wing ideas. I don't think it's gonna go over very well, and I don't think you're gonna recover from it quickly. But in tech and in many other business domains at least, it is now possible to have an

这种观点与 2020 年的共识并不相符，这是肯定的。嗯，Rails 社区里有些风波，其他地方也有一些。事情都还好吧？后来结果怎么样？都还好吗？我的意思是，每一轮风波都会逐渐平息。所以就像是，我们曾经经历过一波超级风波的感染高峰，时间大概和 2020 年其他社区的风波感染高峰差不多。然后你会发现，每次有新的风波爆发，规模都比上一次小。那些在意识形态上执着于这类斗争的人，也越来越少。到了现在，在我看来，X 最好的事情之一，就是 Bluesky 和 Mastodon 出现了。因为这多少就像是……opinion that does not square with what the consensus was in 2020. That's for sure. Well, there's some drama in the Rails community. There's some drama elsewhere. Is it, is it allHow did that turn out? Is that all okay? In the sense that every single round of drama shrinks. So it's like we've, we had this peak infection of mega drama around the same time every other community had a peak infection of drama around 2020. And then you just see, like, every time there's a new flare up, it's less. And the kind of people who are ideologically wedded to sort of that struggle just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. And at this point, one of the best things that happened for X, in my opinion, was that Bluesky and Mastodon came around. Because it kind of was like this

当时简直成了 X 和 Twitter 上最恶毒的那群人的诱捕器，对吧？他们都聚集在这里，挤在一个不断缩小的回音室里，一轮又一轮地进行纯化，每次都把圈子缩得更小，最后剩下的人寥寥无几。如今还留在那里的人，已经都不为人所见，也不为人所想了。这并不是说 X 是什么完美的地方，也不是说那里偶尔不会出现行刑队，或者不会有……但这种情况少一些。就像我每次被拉进 Mastodon 的讨论串——或者说，也不是被拉进去，只是在远处围观——或者看到 Bluesky 上的讨论串什么的，都会觉得：“噢，靠，对啊，这就是以前 Twitter 的样子。天哪。”honeypot for just the most vicious individuals on X and Twitter at the time, right? Who just congregated here in an ever-shrinking echo chamber that just went through purity cycle after purity cycle and shrank every single time to the point that there were just not a lot left. And the people who are left now there, they're just out of sight, out of mind. And that's not to say that X is some sort of perfect place, or there aren't firing squads occasionally there, or there aren'tBut there's less of it. Like, every single time I've been pulled into a Mastodon, or not been pulled in, just spectated from afar, thread, a Bluesky or whatever, it was like, "Oh, shit yeah, this is what Twitter used to be like. Jesus."

而现在你也可以像我一样，真正参与到 X 上。我的互动内容有 90% 都是些很酷的 Linux 和科技话题，比如：“看，我发现了一台新电脑。你能看出它有多快吗？”我可以和其他同样对电脑充满热情的人聊这些。剩下大概 10% 的时间，我会就一些稍有争议的话题发表看法，然后大家可以稍微讨论一下。And now you can actually be on X, as I am, and, like, 90% of my engagement is about cool Linux stuff, cool technology stuff. "Look, I discovered a new computer. Can you see how fast it is?" And I can have those conversations with other people who are just also excited about computers. And then there's, like, 10% of it left that's like, all right, I'll chime in on something that's a little controversial, and we can have a little discussion there.

然后我们就可以重新对电脑感到兴奋了。这个算法确实很擅长找到你会觉得有意思的内容——哦，我不该这么说，应该说是能吸引你的内容。有时候它会让人恼火，但确实很吸引人。因此，从显示性偏好来看，大多数人想要的是“为你推荐”页面，而不只是关注动态流。And then we can just go back to being excited about computers. The algorithm is actually very good at finding stuff that you will find interesting, or s I shouldn't say that, engaging. Sometimes it's enraging, but it is engaging, and therefore, revealed preference is that most people want a For You page. They don't want just a following feed.

不，不过他们沉迷于 For You 页面，对吧？他们——是的，是的。确实如此。我觉得，如果我们有一个强大的 LLM 来打造个性化信息流，效果会好得多。问题是如何大规模提供这种服务，这极其困难。No, but they're addicted to the For You page, right? TheyYes, yes. That's true. I think an LLM, like, if we had a strong LLM doing the feed that's personalized, it would do much better. The problem is how to deliver that at scale is extremely difficult.

嗯，问题在于奖励函数是参与度。一旦奖励函数变成参与度——参与度就会顺着人的本能走，然后事情就变成这样了。不过我也不想这么消极。对我来说，我知道我们每个人都有自己的个性化算法，有时候确实有点过头。但我想说，平均来看，过去十年里，这是 X 有史以来最好的时候。我这么说，是因为我很关注各种科技话题、Linux 话题等等。现在这些话题终于能以一种不总是被那些想把讨论硬扯到政治上的人闯入的方式进行——我觉得这真的很棒。我觉得 X 确实是个寻找这类内容的好地方。Well, the problem is the reward function is engagement. And as soon as the reward function is engagement-engagement's gonna follow base instincts, and here we go. But I also don't wanna be so negative. To me, and I get we all have our own personalized algorithms, and sometimes it gets a little much. But I would say, on average, over the last 10 years, this is the best X has ever been. And I say that as someone who cares about a lot of technology talk, a lot of Linux talk, and a lot of that. That that's able to happen now in a way where it doesn't constantly get gatecrashed by people who wanna drag it into some political discussion-I find to be really awesome. I find actually X to be a great place to find that.

现在，这里也是寻找其他内容的地方，而且我们都有各自的算法，所以你不能断言 X 是什么，或者不是什么。你的信息流可能和我的完全不同，也和别人的完全不同，对吧？是啊，我没法对此发表评论，因为我采访的对象五花八门，所以我的信息流可能就是……这对你的信息流来说是好事还是坏事？你得有这个，对吧？Now, it's also a place to find other things, and we all have our own algorithms, so you can't make any declarative announcements about what X is or what it isn't. Your feed is probably totally different from my feed, and it's totally different from someone else's feed, right? Yeah, I can't comment on this because because of the nature of the fact that I interview a wide variety of people, my feed is probably just a Is it, is it good for your feed or is it bad for your feed that you have to have it right?

真糟。糟就糟在，我可能会说：“我在吃这个苹果，真好吃。”然后就会有一群人冒出来：“哟，那是因为你是泽连斯基的水军。得了吧。或者你是普京的水军，你这个混蛋。”就，行吧。It's bad. It's bad 'cause I could be like, "I'm eating this apple. It's so delicious." And then a bunch of people will show up, "Well, it's because you're a Zelensky shill Yeah, right. or you're a Putin shill, you piece of shit." It's like, all right.

我还是回到那个……我是说，我偶尔也会有那么一刻，心里就会想：“等等，什么？我们在说什么？你是……你为什么要以这种方式出现？”这也是我真的很喜欢播客的原因之一，因为我发现，即使是长篇写作，当我提出长篇论证时，人们也会用他们脑海中我说话的声音来听。I'll just go back to the I mean, I occasionally have a little bit of that where you just go like, "Wait, what? What are we talking about? What are youWhy would you show up in this way?" This is one of the reasons why I actually really enjoy podcasts, because I have found that even in long-form writing, when I make long-form arguments, people hear it in whatever voice they have in their head for me.

而且，这种想法往往会在听论点之前就预先形成，比如说，嗯，这家伙是个什么法西斯之类的。然后他们听到这些话，也会把这些话解读成那些标签所暗示的意思。当他们实际听到或看到我提出这些论点时的语气，他们可能并不同意这些论点。当然，他们中的很多人显然确实不同意。And that often gets pre-programmed in advance of the arguments, just like, well, this guy is a, whatever, fascist. And then they hear the words and they read the words in those names. When they see or hear the actual tone of how I'm presenting the arguments, they may not agree with those arguments. I mean, many of them, of course, obviously don't.

但要像那样轻易地否定或讨厌一个人，就难得多了。至少这是我的感受，也是我听到的反馈。人们会说：“嗯，我之前有某种看法，后来听了你上 Lex 的节目。你说得其实合理多了。”但比这更重要的是，我希望人们也能用这种方式对待其他人，比如先假定对方是个好人。But it's much harder to just dismiss or hate someone like that. At least that's what I've found, and that's the response that I've gotten, that people are like, "Well, I had a certain opinion and then I heard you on Lex. That actually sounded much more reasonable." But even more than that, I would love it if people just exercise this kind of approach to other people of, like, assuming they're a good person.

是的。然后，如果他们有一个你不同意的观点，他们依然是个有这种观点的好人。你也许会觉得他们很蠢，没关系。只要觉得他们是迷失了方向。但要把他们当作好人。我觉得，如果你这么想，你就会开始……有一件事确实能引发互动，那就是某种程度上贬低别人。Yes. And then, and if they have an opinion you disagree with, they're a good person who has an opinion. You can maybe think they're stupid, fine. Just think they're lost. But think of them as a good person. I think if you think of, you start, there's, one of the things that gets engagement is kind of shitting on other people.

对。如果你接触别人时只是想找他们的缺点，那你总能找到他们不好的一面。他们总有些让人讨厌的地方，百分之百。Right. And if you just approach other people as they're, you're looking for bad, you will always find bad in them. There's something annoying about them. 100%.

如果你这样看待别人，就没法从中学到东西，还会让心里充满仇恨。你不会……这只是一种糟糕的生活方式，也是一种糟糕的与世界相处的方式，而这正是互联网在某种程度上助长的事情。所以，如果你能以这样的态度去接触那些你非常不同意的人，那就很好：哦，我也许能从这个人身上学到点什么。黑豹党的人、威廉·巴克利，我们可能会讨厌他们，但还是去爱他们吧。And if you look at people in that way, you're not gonna learn from it, and you're gonna fill your heart with hate. You're not gonna, it's just a bad way to live and to interact with the world, and that is one of the things that the internet kind of encourages, so. It'd be nice if you just approach even people who you really disagree with, it's like, oh, I might learn something from this person. The Black Panther person, William Buckley, we might hate just love them.

这就是个缩影。有个人叫 Theo，不知道你有没有关注他。对，对，对。嗯，我们因为一个项目不再使用 TypeScript 这事儿有过点小摩擦。他不喜欢这个决定，对这件事以及其他做法也有自己的看法。之后我就想，真是个蠢货。So microcosm of this. There's a guy, Theo, I don't know if you follow him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, we had a bit of a thing over the fact that we stopped using TypeScript Yeahfor a project, and he didn't like that and had opinions about that and other actions. And after that I thought like, what a bozo.

而且，你知道吗？我还是觉得那是个蠢到家的决定。不过我也可以这么想：这哥们儿真的很迷 AI。他在尝试各种模型，我们也能为此一起兴奋起来，所以我昨天就开始关注他了。太棒了。我当时想：你知道吗？我没必要事事都跟你意见一致。呃，我甚至不必喜欢你做过或说过的某些事，或者别的什么。我还是可以关注你。所以，如果我能回关 Theo，我觉得这世上还是有实现世界和平的可能的。And, and do you know what? I still think that was a bozo move, and then I can also think like, well, the dude's really into AI. He's trying all these models, and we can share some excitement about that, so I just started following him yesterday. Awesome. I was like, do you know what? I don't have to agree with you on everything. Uh, I don't even have to like some of the things that you did or said or whatever. I can follow you anyway. So if I can follow back Theo, then I think there's room for world peace here.

对，他确实是个很好的例子。他很有主见，想法也经常变，有时还会冷嘲热讽，但我觉得他本质上是个好人。不管怎样，我是说，你知道吗？当信息流里有人聊我关心的事情时，就会有趣得多。而且，我不必事事都赞同你。我就是不必。Yeah, he's actually a really good example. He's really opinionated, Changes his mind quite a bit, can get snarky, but I think he's a good person underneath. And either way, I just, you know what? My feed is more interesting when there's some people talking about things that I care about and yeah, I don't have to agree with you on everything. I just don't.

我觉得这挺有意思的，你提到你妻子说过一句让你印象深刻的话：男性对极致长寿的痴迷，以及对相关科技的关注，就像女性的厌食症，是焦虑和缺乏掌控感在身体上的体现。不知怎么的，这话听起来确实有几分道理。很多人显然也有同感。我觉得那条推文反响特别大，不知道你有没有注意到，Bryan Johnson 也在那条讨论串里发表了看法；我能理解 Bryan 为什么会觉得那话有点像是在挖苦他。This I found pretty funny, that you mentioned something your wife said that stuck with you, that all this tech adjacent extreme longevity focus in men is like anorexia in women, a physical manifestation of anxiety and lack of control. That somehow rang true a little bit. It certainly did to a lot of people. I think that tweet really popped off, and I don't know if you noticed, but Bryan Johnson chimed in on the thread, and I could see how Bryan would read that as a bit of a jab.

我确实觉得，Jamie 在那段对话中可能也想到了他，以及其他一些人。这也是一个例子：虽然我并不认同 Bryan 的使命——我想他的口号是“别死”。但说真的，我确实想死。我不想永远这样活下去。我觉得人类寿命大约在90到100岁，听起来挺合适的。我拥抱生命的有限性。And I do think that Jamie was probably thinking of him amongst other people in that conversation. And it's also an example of where even though I'm not subscribing to Bryan's mission of, I think it's the slogan's don't die. I actually I do wanna die. I don't wanna do this forever. Like, I think the human li lifespan of about 90 to 100 sounds about right. I'm embracing the finitude of life.

我们不必对此达成一致。事实上，对我来说，布莱恩是个有趣得多的人，正是因为我们在这件事上看法不同；而且布莱恩愿意为了那个使命，真的把自己的皮肤以及身体的各种其他部分都投入其中，这非常有意思。现在，我可以抱持这样的看法：这真的很有意思。我很高兴布莱恩在追寻自己的热情，同时也觉得我妻子的分析说得很有道理：这似乎确实有某种潜在的，呃，我不知道，对……的恐惧。我昨天和杰米聊到这件事，她说，或者把它比作这样一种感觉：有些人觉得自己的人生还没活够。而其中一个……We don't have to agree on that. In fact, Bryan is a vastly more interesting human to me because we don't agree with that, and Bryan's willingness to literally put his own skin and all sorts of other body elements in the game for that mission is really interesting. Now, I can have that view, this is really interesting. I'm glad Bryan is pursuing this passion of his, and then also find my wife's analysis to ring true, that it does seem like there is some underlying, uh, I don't know, fear ofI was talking to Jamie yesterday about this, and she was saying, Or comparing it to this sense of people who didn't feel like they had lived enough. And one of

也许他们活得不够尽兴的原因在于，如今的现代社会已经成了一个监控社会——监视我们的并非国家，而是彼此。到处都是带摄像头的手机。任何失态，甚至一时兴起的放纵或令人尴尬的举动，都极有可能被录下来，然后传播开来，直到沦为笑柄。在这种情况下，人类理性的反应是什么？就是退缩，就是确保自己不会毫无顾忌地跳舞，因为——他们很可能正在拍你，让你在互联网上永远蒙羞。所以，也许你干脆就别跳舞了。因此，如果我们都已经退缩到几乎不再生活的地步，那么我们……the reasons perhaps that they hadn't lived enough was that modern society now is a surveillance state, not by the state actually, but by each other. There are camera phones everywhere. Every indiscretion or even outburst of fun or cringe is highly likely to be recorded and then shared to the point of ridicule, and what is the rational reaction for humans under those conditions is to pull back, is to make sure you don't dance like nobody's watching because-they're probably filming you to your great and eternal embarrassment on the internet, so maybe you just shouldn't dance at all. And therefore, if we've all retracted to the point that we're barely living, we're

执着于希望它永远持续下去。现在——我是说，我确定这个论点并不适用于所有情况。我甚至不知道它是否适用于布莱恩，或者这里的其他任何人。但我觉得这话有点道理：如果你觉得自己确实好好活过了，那么你也能接受“我已经活得够久了”这个想法。而且，生命有尽头，并不是非要抗争的事。那么，这会不会也只是一种存在主义式的事后合理化？如果明天真有一种能让人永生的药，我们是不是都会去吃？是的，这种可能性确实存在。clinging on to wanting it to last forever. Now-I mean, I'm sure that thesis does not apply in all circumstances. I don't even know if it applies to Bryan or, or anyone else here. But I think there's something to this, that if you feel like you've really lived, you're okay thinking I've lived enough. And that the, it having an end is not something to be fought. Now, is it also possible that this is all just existential post-rationalization, and if tomorrow there was a live forever pill, we'd all take it? Yeah, that's possible.

如果我们真的这么做了，社会的处境会不会更糟？有可能。人类的寿命之所以是现在这个长度，会不会是出于社会学原因，而不只是生物学原因？有可能。所以我觉得这些都是很有意思的问题，而且我觉得她的分析确实触及了关键。之后也有人讨论过这个问题。我是说，我觉得那条推文大概是一年前的事了。但就在最近，我们一直在谈这种过度优化的现象。我看到 Chris Williamson 的《Modern Wisdom》有一段内容，他说：“好吧，也许我们确实有点做过头了。”引发这一话题的是《Diary of a CEO》，当时主持人说了类似这样的话：“我喝了一杯葡萄酒，接下来的三天就全毁了。”Is it also possible that if we did that, society be, would be worse off? Yes. Is it possible that the human lifespan is the length it is for sociological reasons, not just biological reasons? Yes. So I think these are just all interesting questions, and I just thought her analysis really got to something here. And that discussion has come up afterwards. I mean, that, I think that tweet is like a year old. But just recently, we've been talking about this over-optimizers. I saw, uh, Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom had a bit where he was like, "Yeah, okay, maybe we did go a little overboard." And the triggering thing was the Diary of a CEO, where the host was saying something to the effect of, "I had a glass of wine and the next three days were ruined."

而且我觉得，就他的情况而言，我相信确实如此。比如说，如果你很长一段时间滴酒未沾，然后只喝了一点，我能理解为什么会产生影响。但这件事里还有某种东西，似乎触发了很多人——我自己也包括在内——一种发自本能的反应，让我当时心想：“操，哥们儿，我现在就该来杯葡萄酒，尽管我平时不怎么喝酒。”And that to me, I mean, in his circumstance, I'm sure that's true. Like, if you have not drank any alcohol for a very long time and you have just a little, I could see how it can have effect. But also there's something in that that just triggered a visceral reaction, I think, for a lot of people, and myself included, where I was like, "Fuck, man, I should have a glass of wine just right now, even though I don't usually drink."

事实上，我觉得酒精这个问题是个很好的缩影，值得深入看看。显然，我们现在都不喝酒了——酒精销量大幅下降，年轻人中尤其如此。一方面，从纯粹的健康指标来看，不管怎么说，我们可以觉得：“哇，这不是挺好的吗？”但我会想：“嗯，我不太确定这是不是好事。”酒精能起到的社交润滑作用，人们可能会怀念，也确实正在怀念。我的意思是，我们正陷入一场彻头彻尾的孤独、痛苦和抑郁大流行之中，而其中相当一部分很可能就是因为你和别人互动得不够。更不用说恋爱配对了，对吧？这方面的数字也大幅下降，人们很难找到伴侣。And in fact I think the alcohol question is a good microcosm to zoom in on. So we've all stopped drinking apparently, like alcohol sales are way down-certainly amongst young people. And then on the one hand, on the pure health metrics, whatever, we can go like, "Oh wow, isn't that great?" And then I go like, "Yeah, I'm not so sure it is." Like the social lubricant that alcohol can provide may be missed, is missed. I mean, we are in an absolute epidemic of loneliness and misery and depression and whatever, and a fair amount of it just probably comes because you're not interacting enough with other people. Now, that's before we even talk about coupling, right? Like way down, people having a very hard time meeting a spouse.

而且，很多东西都转移到了各种各样会带来负面结果和后果的应用上，对吧？也许我们将来会回头看，也许我们现在已经在回顾了，心想：“唉，你知道吗？偶尔醉得不省人事，可能也没那么糟。”不管醉不醉，也许出门时每周五或周六喝上几杯，正是促成社会发展到今天这个样子的因素之一。也许人类真的已经喝了大约一万三千年的酒，这有助于修补事物、发挥着某种社会功能，而我们却懊恼地搬出了切斯特顿的篱笆原则，对吧？And-a lot of that has moved over to apps that have all sorts of negative outcomes and consequences, right? Like maybe we will look back, or maybe we already are looking back and thinking like, "Eh, do you know what? Maybe getting wasted every once in a while was not the worst thing in the world." And whether wasted or not, maybe just having a couple of drinks every Friday or Saturday when you're out and about was part of what helped society get to where it is. Maybe the fact that humans have literally been drinking for whatever it is, like 13,000 years for mending things, had a social purpose, and we pull out Chesterton's fence of our own chagrin, right?

正如你提到的，出于这种想法，我在中国乡村旅行时，二十出头确实抽过一点烟，不过那趟旅行我抽烟纯粹是为了社交，对吧？我还喝了很多酒，尽管如今我基本不喝酒了，因为这是一种社交方式，也是他们表达爱的方式。As you mentioned, in the spirit of that, so when I traveled across rural China, I did smoke a little bit in my early 20s, but I picked up just for that trip A social connector, right? And I drank humongous amounts, even though I don't really drink these days, because of the social thing. It's the way they show love.

我还吃了巨多碳水——而我平时通常吃低碳饮食。我就是喜欢吃肉。所以，这只是因为那是他们表达爱的方式。其实在那个社会里，香烟也是如此；但在大多数社会，喝酒是大家一起做的事，也是一种情谊纽带。And I also ate a shitload of carbs, which-I'm usually low carb. I just like meat. So just because it's the way they show love. And actually even, it's in that society cigarettes, but in most societies, liquor is a thing to do together. And it's a bond.

并非如此；由此带来的好处在很多情况下，长期来看可能会超过负面后果——不管你用什么方式衡量这些后果。现代性的短视就在于，我们把事情简化成这样：嗯，在这项长期研究中，喝一杯就意味着你患某种心脏缺陷的风险增加了0.1%。It doesn't, the benefits that that entails can, in many situations, outweigh the negative consequences like long-term for whatever, however you measure them. And this is the myopia of modernity, that we reduce things down to like, well, one glass on this long run study meant that you had a 0.1% greater risk of some heart defect.

是的，但如果你完全不去生活，那又有什么意义呢？反过来，走向另一个极端也很容易。好像生活的唯一方式就是每个周末都喝醉，吃一堆垃圾食品，每天抽 40 支烟。不是的，生活并非非此即彼。这也是我不再戴 Oura Ring 的原因之一。我戴 Oura 睡眠戒指戴了很多年，整整四年。有一天我突然想：“我不需要知道自己昨晚睡得——”“很不好。”Yes, but if you didn't live at all, what's the point? And again, it's also easy to flip over the other side. Like the only way to live is to get drunk every weekend and eat a bunch of crap and smoke 40 cigarettes a day. No, it's not. Like it doesn't have to be the either/or. This is one of the reasons I stopped wearing my Oura Ring. So I wore the Oura sleep ring for many years, four years. And one day I was just like, "I don't need to know that I had-""a bad night of sleep."

就像我知道的。这又增加了一层——我不想把它称作焦虑，我平时也没那么焦虑——但这个提醒就像是在提醒我昨晚没睡好，它到底起什么作用？我为什么需要知道所有这些数据？为什么什么事都要优化？结果就是，再说一次，听了《Diary of a CEO》里那个小故事之后，我就想：“靠，我其实有点想要完全相反的生活。”我几乎从来不喝酒。可能一个月喝一杯红酒吧。Like I know. This added, I don't wanna call it an anxiety, I don't have a lot of anxiety, but this added just like reminder-that I had a bad night of sleep, what purpose is it actually playing here? Why do I need to have all these stats? Why do I need to optimize everything? To the point where, again, after that single anecdote, you know, from Diary of a CEO, I was like, "Fuck, I kind of want the opposite." Like I barely drink at all. A glass of wine once a month maybe.

你知道吗？我该开始试试，只在周末喝点儿，来一杯。也许两杯。还有，我从来不是那种会为饮食操心的人。嗯，这就是娶了……的一大特权。我先岔开说一句：千万别把四十多岁的女人称作“了不起的女人”。我妻子气坏了——不光是因为我去年偏偏在她生日那天来，这已经够糟了；还因为我在节目里称她为“了不起的女人”，听起来就像她叫南希、已经65岁，住在罗切斯特郊区似的。Like, do you know what? I should start, uh, just on the weekends, get a glass. Maybe two. And also, I mean, I've never been the person to fret about my diet. Um, this is one of the great privileges of being married to, and I'll do a quick aside here. Don't ever call a woman in her 40s a wonderful woman. My wife was so pissed—that not only last year did I come on her birthday, that was bad enough, but that I called her a wonderful woman on the show, because that sounded like her name was Nancy and she was 65—in the suburb of Rochester.

所以我当时就想，我本来是想玩那个 50。就，唉，我不知道，我是丹麦人，我怎么会知道呢？但这话效果不太好。所以我打算改说“很棒的女人”。如果你娶了一位很棒的女人，她不仅会做饭，而且还喜欢做饭，你知道吗？在人类社会里，这里有一种非常传统的劳动分工，在过去几万年里一直相当稳定；也许这也并不是世上最糟糕的主意。当然我也知道，有很多男人喜欢做饭，也有些女人不喜欢。但就刻板印象而言，嗯，这确实帮了我。比如说，如果我平时不能比较规律地吃得健康一些，我想我就没办法对吃什么这么放松。但总的来说，重点就是，嗯……So I'm like, I was trying to play the 50. Like, no, I don't know, I'm Danish. How would I know? But that didn't go over well. So I'm gonna say awesome woman instead. If you marry an awesome woman who also not only knows how to cook, but enjoys it, do you know what? There's a very traditional division of labor here that has been quite stable through severaltens of thousands of years in human societies, that perhaps also wasn't the worst idea in the world. And I also know there are plenty of men who like to cook, and there are women who don't. But as stereotypes go, eh, that certainly helped me. Like, I don't think I would've been able to just be as relaxed about food if I didn't eat relatively healthy on a, on a regular basis. But the overall point being, just

摆脱那种不断追求优化的游戏，又不至于走向另一个极端。你也不必变成窝在沙发上的大胖子，还是可以活动活动。对，我们接下来要谈的更重要的一点，是生命的有限性。是的，这点我同意你。getting out of that optimization game without turning into the opposite. You don't have to be a fat slob on the couch either. You can move around. Yeah. And then the bigger point we're talking about is the finiteness of life. Yes. And I agree with you on this.

这实际上是个功能，我把它做进了 Omarchy。所以，memento mori。记住死亡。如果你在 Omarchy 里拉出日历，点击时钟就能打开它。它会展开，第一件有意思的事是，我是从网上找来的。有个叫 Year's Progress 的账号，每天都会更新，只显示 2026 年已经过去了 63%。不知道你有没有见过这个。This was actually a feature, I built it into Omarchy. So memento mori. Remember death. If you pull down the calendar in Omarchy, you open it by clicking the clock. It opens up, and the first funny thing, I took it off the internet. There's this account called Year's Progress, and it, every day it updates, and it just shows 63% done with 2026. I don't know if you've seen that one.

所以它就会一点点填满。我就把这个功能加进了日历里。现在它显示：“2026 年已经过去了 63%。”不过如果你双击它，它就会问你：“你是哪年出生的？你预计能活多久？”默认值是 90 岁。所以我填了 1979 年。然后就在那条显示今年已经过去多少的进度条正下方……哦，真漂亮。So it just fills up. So I built that into the calendar. So right now it says, "We're 63% done with 2026." But then if you double-click that, it'll ask you, "When were you born? How long do you expect to live?" And the default is 90. So I put in 1979. And then right below the line of, like, how long are we done with the year Oh, that's beautiful.

有一条新显示会告诉你这一生已经过去了多久。我觉得我大概已经过了 62%。我想，如果把鼠标悬停在上面，它会显示：“Memento mori（勿忘终有一死）。”真美。有不少人觉得这有点阴郁，但这正是它被做成彩蛋的原因。它不会直接显示出来，你得点几下才能找到。我喜欢这个提醒。我喜欢它提醒我时间有限，我应该充分利用时间。is a new line that shows how long are you done with your life. I think I'm at 62%. I'm like, if you hover over it, it says, "Memento mori." That's beautiful. Fair number of people found it morbid, but this was why it is an Easter egg. It's not, like, exposed. You gotta click a few things to get there. I like the reminder. I like the reminder that time is finite, and I should make the most of it.

这也是有孩子的一大特权。你会真切地意识到，那些老生常谈的话都是真的。天哪，时间过得真快。我还记得我现在13岁的孩子才一岁、两岁的时候。我当时想：“这明明就像是昨天的事。”这些话之所以成了老生常谈，是因为这是大家共同的经历。老生常谈也有它的好处。And this is also one of the privileges of having children. You really realize that the cliches are all true. Oh my God, it goes so fast. And I remember my now 13-year-old being one, being two. I was like, "This was just yesterday." And the reason it's a cliche is because it's a shared experience. Cliches are good.

它们会提醒你，你也是人类经历的一部分，而且在你之前，已经有人走过这段路。我得问问，你提到了那位了不起的女士，还有她很会做饭。了不起。一定要记住，非常重要。不是“很棒”，是“了不起”。了不起。所以有这么个事儿——你说了些牛角包的坏话什么的。我在一条推文里看到了这个。那丹麦可颂是不是 somehow 更好？They remind you that you are part of the human experience, and others have been here before you. I have to ask, you mentioned the amazing woman and great cook. Amazing. Very important to remember. Not wonderful, amazing. Amazing. So there's thisYou talked some shit about croissants or something. I saw this, this in a tweet. So is the Danish croissant somehow better?

说实话，丹麦的羊角面包并不怎么好吃。在我看来，偏偏只有 7-Eleven 能买到还算过得去的羊角面包，这让我觉得特别好笑，因为在美国，至少在芝加哥，去 7-Eleven 就是为了买杯思乐冰，顺便尽量别被人杀了。但在丹麦，7-Eleven 却是一家非常高档、特别棒的便利店，而且他们做的羊角面包碰巧还挺不错。Actually, Danish croissants are not particularly good. In my opinion, the only place you can find a half-decent croissant, of all places, is 7-Eleven, which is hilarious to me because 7-Eleven in the US is the place where, at least in Chicago, you'd go to get a slushie and try to avoid getting murdered. But in Denmark, 7-Eleven is this very upscale, super nice convenience store, and they just happen to make decent croissants.

而且我一直觉得很不可思议：我在美国生活了整整20年，居然至今连一个能比得上哥本哈根 7-Eleven 牛角包的牛角包都没吃过。这听起来不太可能。你弄明白原因了吗？And it always baffled me that I lived in the United States for 20 freaking years. I have yet to have a single croissant that's even at the level of a 7-Eleven croissant in Copenhagen. That seems improbable. Have you understood why?

不，我确实认真考虑过请一位调查记者来彻底查清这件事，因为我听到的各种说法实在五花八门。有人说是水的问题，有人说是黄油的问题，有人说是技术的问题，还有人说是这个、那个，或者别的什么。我就觉得，这些说法没一个说得通。要是黄油的问题，不能直接进口吗？我记得好像在这边的一些超市里见过丹麦黄油，比如 Lurpak。No, I've legitimately considered hiring an investigative journalist to get to the bottom of this, because the number of theories I've heard have been all over the place. It's the water. It's the butter. It's the skill. It's the this, it's the that, it's the other thing. I'm like, none of it adds up to me. If it's the butter, can't you just import it? I thought I saw Danish butter in some supermarkets over here like Lurpak.

所以原因不可能是这个。会是手艺的问题吗？不，不可能是手艺的问题。美国有很多法国人和比利时人，他们是世界上最顶尖的可颂师傅。那到底是为什么呢？然后我又听到第二种说法——“不不不，你只是没去对地方。”我真去了十五家所谓的“对的地方”，结果那些可颂全都烂透了。So that can't be it. Can it be the skill? No, it can't be the skill. There are plenty of French people and Belgian people, the best croissant makers in the world, who live in the US. Like, what is the reason? And then I get the second thing, which is-"No, no, you just haven't gone to the right place." I've literally gone to 15 of quote unquote-"the right place," and all the croissants were shit.

所以，在我离开这个星球之前，我得弄清楚美国为什么做不出像样的可颂。我也不是在要求顶级的法式可颂、顶级的比利时可颂——那可是世界上最好吃的可颂。我只不过是想要一只哥本哈根 7-Eleven 的可颂。这要求很过分吗？So before I leave the planet, I have to get to the bottom of why the United States cannot make a proper croissant. And I don't, I'm not even asking about peak French croissants, peak Belgian croissants-which are the best croissants in the world. I'm just asking about the 7-Eleven croissant from Copenhagen. Is that too much to ask for?

真是个有趣的谜团。那从更宏观的角度来看，你最喜欢的……这让我想知道，你最喜欢吃什么？比如说，如果我给你一顿最后的晚餐，然后再把你杀了。那得看是午餐还是晚餐。如果是午餐，那它……就是一顿饭。什么，什么……我觉得，如果你都要被杀了，那是午餐还是晚餐其实没什么区别。That's a fascinating mystery. What, zooming out, what's your, what's your favoriteThis makes me want to know, what's your favorite meal? Like, if you, if I gave you a last meal and were to murder you after. It all depends whether it's lunch or it's dinner. If it's lunch, it It's one meal. What's, what'sI feel like if you're getting murdered, it doesn't really matter if it's lunch or dinner.

嗯，这得看你是在一天中的什么时间被杀。哦，我明白了。如果是下午行刑，我就只能吃午饭。好吧。要是能吃午饭，那就是在路易斯安那现代艺术博物馆——哥本哈根北边的那家博物馆。Well, depends on what time of day you're getting murdered. Oh, I see. If it's an afternoon execution, I only get lunch. Okay. And if I get lunch, it's at Louisiana, the museum in north of Copenhagen.

我两天前才和杰米去过那里，而且我们经常去。博物馆很不错。我们不是为了博物馆去的，我们是为了那里的自助餐厅。光是这么说听起来就很疯狂。就像，是啊，确实如此，你居然要开半个小时的车去一家自助餐厅。I was just there with Jamie two days ago, and we go there all the time. The museum is lovely. We don't go for the museum. We go for the cafeteria. That in itself sounds crazy. Like Yeah, it doesyou're gonna, you're gonna drive half an hour to go to a cafeteria.

嗯，刚好，那是我这辈子吃过的最好的一顿午餐。那里的厨师简直好得不可思议。不仅食物美味，对我这个爱系统性思考的人来说，更不可思议的是，我们在那儿的时候，随时可能都有大约200人在等餐，而我们的餐点五分钟就送到了。他们的菜单很精简，显然是批量制作的，而且味道好得令人难以置信。Well, it just so happens to be, it is the best lunch I've probably ever had in my life. The chef there is just unbelievably good, and not only is the food amazing, what's even more amazing to my system thinking brain is that at any one time when we were up there, I think there were probably 200 people waiting for their food. And our food was delivered in five minutes. They have a small menu, and clearly they make it in bulk, and it's unbelievably delicious.

就只是博物馆里的一个食堂？” “那是博物馆里的一个食堂，只不过碰巧做出了我这辈子在任何地方吃过的最好吃的午餐。” “说的是什么吃的？午餐是什么类型的？” “就是北欧菜，所以它、它……” “有件挺好笑的事，我看菜单的时候就想：‘你知道吗？要是我小时候看到这菜单，我肯定会说：“我才不在这儿吃呢。”’感觉挺高级的，什么根茎类蔬菜、水果、洋葱，还有各种健康食品。听起来恶心死了。可你坐下来吃上一口，天使就开始唱歌了。不过，讲究的还不止这些。关键在黄油。Just a cafeteria at a museum? It's a cafeteria at a museum that happens to have the best lunch I've ever had anywhere in my life. What kind of food are we talking about? What kind of lunch food? It's, like, Nordic cuisine, so it's, it'sA funny thing is the menu, when I look at it, I was like, "Do you know what? If I saw this menu As a kid, I'd go like, "I'm not eating here." It's like, I don't know This is pretty fancyroot free fruit and-and onions-and all sorts of healthy stuff. That sounds disgusting. And then you sit down and eat it, and the angels sing. But it's even more particular than that. It's the butter.

他们那里的打发黄油，是全世界最好吃的黄油。我觉得这肯定也和羊角面包之谜有关。两者之间一定有某种联系。但说真的——即使是在巴黎，我也从没吃过比哥本哈根路易斯安那美术馆的黄油更美味的打发黄油。真的，我愿意开车30分钟，就为了在路易斯安那美术馆的自助餐厅吃面包配黄油。The whipped butter that they have there, the best butter anywhere in the world. I think that has to be connected to the croissant mystery too. There must be some connection. But literally-even in Paris, I've never had whipped butter that tastes as delicious as the butter does at Louisiana in Copenhagen. Literally, I would drive 30 minutes-to have bread and butter at the cafeteria in Louisiana.

嗯，那你是怎么发现的？就是有一天你去了博物馆？我想我们只是去了博物馆，然后你尝了一整道菜。我们吃午餐的时候就觉得：这也太奇怪了。Well, how'd you discover that? Just one day you went to the museum and I think we just went to the museum And you tried a whole dish. and we had the lunch, and we were likeThis is weird.

这家餐厅的水准足以媲美我这辈子去过的最好吃的餐厅——我去过 Noma 几次，也尝过那儿能尝的各种菜，而这家绝对不遑多让。好吧。说到晚餐呢？既然你提到了，晚餐有什么不同吗？你得考虑些什么……嗯，我觉得哥本哈根有很多不错的选择，不过我其实会选西班牙的一家餐厅。马贝拉有个地方叫 Puente Romano，是一家酒店。酒店靠海滩那边有家海滨餐厅，供应新鲜海鲜。This is rivaling the best tasting restaurants-I've ever been to in my life, and I've gone to Noma a couple of times and tried what there is to try, and this is right up there. All right. What about dinner, since you mentioned? Is it something different that you have to think Well, I think there's a lot of good options in Copenhagen, but actually I'll pick a place in Spain. So there is this place in Marbella called Puente Romano. It's a hotel, and down by the beach, they have this beach restaurant with fresh seafood.

好吃得不可思议。我在努力想它叫什么，不过你要是搜一下，Puente Romano 那家海滩海鲜餐厅简直棒极了。美食有多大程度上取决于地点和陪你一起吃的人，对吧？或者说，取决于你第一次去那里的体验？Unbelievably delicious. I'm trying to remember what it's called, but yeah, if you look it up, the beach seafood place at Puente Romano is incredible. How much of great food is, like, the place and the person you're with, right? Or the, or the experience when you first are there?

我的意思是，氛围当然有帮助，但我觉得我的味蕾也只是……好吧，那——很合拍，所以这确实是真的。味道——这就是好吃的食物。I mean, the ambiance certainly helps, but I think my taste buds are also just Okay, that-in tune for So it's legit. flavorsit is just good food.

就是食物真的很好吃。比如那家食堂，人特别多。我不会说它是那种“天哪，我想在这儿坐两个小时”的地方。但食物实在太美味了。旅行走遍全国时，我逐渐意识到，品尝东西时不要带偏见，什么都试试。It's just really good food. Because for ex that cafeteria, it is, there's a lot of people. Like, I wouldn't rate it as like, oh my God, this is just a place I want to sit for two hours. But the food is so delicious. That's one of the things I'm, in traveling across the country, I'm realizing to sample without bias, just try things.

因为你可能会，我想你可能会感到惊讶。也许我能找到你的羊角面包。好吧，我们聊过死亡，聊过食物，也谈了生命终点的问题。那你觉得，一千年后人类、人类文明会是什么样？你觉得我们能撑到那时候吗？'Cause you might, I guess you might just be surprised. Maybe I'll find your croissant. All right, we've talked about mortality. Talked about food. Settled end of life. What do you thousand years from now, what do you think is the future of humans, human civilization? You think we're gonna make it?

一千年以后？老兄，我连12个月之后的事都很难预测。我知道。一千年？你觉得我们有机会吗？哦，我愿意押注乐观主义。我赌人类会成为多行星物种，赌埃隆能把那枚火箭送上火星，赌我们能找到扭曲时空的方法，发现一些虫洞什么的。A thousand years from now? Man, I'm having trouble predicting 12 months from now. I know. A thousand? You think we got a shot? Oh, I'm gonna bet on optimism. I'm gonna bet on a multi-planetary species. I'm gonna bet that Elon gets that rocket to Mars, and we figure out how to bend space-time and discover some wormholes or, or something.

等我们做到之后，你觉得，你觉得地球上所有人类会不会死上一两次，然后在我们做好可靠备份后重新繁衍出来？我是说，那其实是我最喜欢的《黑镜》剧集之一，就是他们被上传到某个八十年代的海滨小镇的那一集。我当时就觉得，哇，这一刻既如此黑暗，却又如此美好，因为大家都意识到，嗯，八十年代其实还挺棒的。Once we do, do you think, you think all humans on Earth will die once or twice and be repopulated After we get a good backup going? I mean, that was actually one of my favorite episodes of Black Mirror, the one where they get uploaded to the 1980s sea town somewhere. And I just thought like, wow, this is both such a dark moment, yet also so beautiful in the shared recognition that, like, the '80s were actually kind of amazing.

我嘛，我对很多时刻都没什么怀旧之情，但我确实很怀念80年代。不过他们还说过，不管你当时身处什么地方、什么时代，你12岁、或者14、15岁左右听的音乐，都会一直留在你心里。可不是嘛，我那时候才10岁，正好赶上80年代。所以那是我的童年早期，而我至今对80年代仍有一种难以置信的深厚情感。所以，如果我要被上传到天上，你希望那是80年代吗？Like, I don't have a lot of nostalgia for many moments, but I do have nostalgia for the '80s. But And they say something about, like, whatever place and time you were in, the music you were listening to when you were 12 or-or 14, 15, something like that, that's what's gonna stick with you. Like, no, I was only, I got to be 10 in the '80s. So this was my early childhood, and I still have an unbelievably fond affiliation with the '80s. So if I'm gonna be uploaded to the sky You want it to be the '80s?

我走的是八十年代风格。哇，我好像真没听谁这么说过。通常都是七十年代或九十年代。哦，还有，因为八十年代是个……我真的不喜欢九十年代。我们能聊聊这个吗？I'm doing the '80s. Wow. I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone say that. Usually it's '70s or '90s. Oh, and the Because the '80s is a I really don't like the '90s. Can we talk about this?

不，我说完了。还没说完。对我来说，这是虚无主义的重大转折点。音乐、流派、时尚——一切都从那种华丽、流行、乐观的风格，甚至雅皮士及其一切，转向了垃圾摇滚和涅槃乐队。No, I'm done. Not done. To me, this was the great turning point of nihilism. That both the music, the genre, the fashion-everything turned from, like, this glamour, the pop, the optimism, even the yuppies and everything-to grunge and Nirvana.

尽管，我是说，我喜欢那音乐，但我不喜欢它的伦理观。我不喜欢——它的道德观。我不喜欢它背后的任何根本理念。那里面有种强烈的失败主义——现在回想起来，如果我非得重新被插回矩阵里，那就选80年代。And even though, I mean, I like the music, I don't like the ethics. I don't like-the morals. I don't like any of the underpinnings to it. There was just such a defeatism to it-that in retrospect, I look back upon it, if I'm gonna get reinserted into the matrix, it's gonna be the '80s.

那里面充满了乐观、有趣，还有色彩。对。我记得我有一条橙色的裤子，上面有白色圆点。那在80年代就是孩子们平常会穿的衣服。That was full of optimism and fun Yesand colors. Yes. I remember having these orange pants-with, like, white dots on them. That was just a normal thing kids could wear in the '80s.

我今天他妈就没见过那种东西。或者说，我是指，就连到了90年代，一切也都变成了那种西雅图式的灰蒙蒙。真是大倒退。所以尼采式的，你知道，就是永恒轮回这个想法。如果你经历一场《土拨鼠之日》，永远活下去，那你肯定希望自己活在80年代，穿着橙色白点裤子。I've never fucking seen that today. Or I mean, even in the '90s, it all turned just, like, Seattle gray. Great regression. So the Nietzschean, you know, this idea of eternal recurrence. If you do a Groundhog Day and you live forever, you want it to be in the orange pants with the white dots in the '80s.

橙色裤子我可能就不穿了，不过不，我肯定选80年代。你说得对。好了，DHH，非常感谢你所做的一切。感谢你成为我们所有人的榜样，在这个世界上打造酷炫的东西，也感谢你今天来分享。Maybe I'm gonna skip the orange pants, but NoI'm definitely picking the '80s. You said it. All right, DHH. Thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for being an inspiration to all of us, for building cool shit in the world, and thank you for talking today.

随时乐意。再次感谢你邀请我，Lex。是的。感谢大家收听这期与 DHH 的对话。为了支持这档播客，请查看简介中的赞助商信息。你也可以在那里找到联系我、提问、提供反馈等相关链接。现在，请听听拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生的一段话。Anytime. Thank you, Lex, again for having me. Yeah. Thanks for listening to this conversation with DHH. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Ralph Waldo Emerson.

“一旦你做出决定，整个宇宙都会合力促成它的实现。”感谢收听，期待下次再见。"Once you make a decision, the universe conspires to make it happen." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.