Replit CEO Amjad Masad 谈 AI 时代的年轻人应该学什么

简要描述Brief Description

Replit 首席执行官 Amjad Masad 讨论了人工智能时代年轻人应该学习什么、大学的意义，以及教育如何支持好奇心、实验和个人成长。Replit CEO Amjad Masad discusses what young people should learn in the AI era, the purpose of college, and how education can support curiosity, experimentation, and personal growth.

目录Table of Contents

• 作为异端的年轻人及大学的宗旨
  Young People as Heretics and the Purpose of College
• 围绕好奇心与自由设计一所大学
  Designing a College Around Curiosity and Freedom
• 项目式学习与实践技能
  Project-Based Learning and Practical Skills
• 介于大学与初创公司之间的折中选择
  A Middle Ground Between College and Startups
• 信任、学生自主性与建设性地打破规则
  Trust, Student Autonomy, and Productive Rule-Breaking
• 品格、伦理与成年之路
  Character, Ethics, and Becoming an Adult
• Amjad 寻找年轻人才时看重什么
  What Amjad Looks for in Young Talent

作为异端的年轻人及大学的宗旨Young People as Heretics and the Purpose of College

归根结底，年轻人的价值在于质疑根深蒂固的信念——做个异端。如今的大学几乎恰恰相反：它们会把任何外来的想法都从你脑子里打出去。我想看到这样一个世界：人们可以去做支线任务，尝试一些古怪的事情，而这些事说不定最终会令人惊艳。Ultimately, the utility of young people is to question deeply held beliefs—to be heretics. In today’s colleges, it’s almost the opposite: they beat any outside thought out of you. I want to see a world where it’s okay to go on a side quest and do something oddball that might turn out to be amazing.

主持人：公司的未来将会改变。Host: The future of companies is going to change.

Amjad：整个行业都变了。从技术角度来看，这相当于彻底重启。Amjad: The whole industry has changed. It’s a complete reset from a technology perspective.

我希望去一所不会规定我该学什么的大学。我希望通过学习获得实现自己想要创造的事物所需的技能。I’d want to go to a college that isn’t prescriptive about what I learn. I’m motivated by the skills it can give me to achieve what I want to build.

学院的核心宗旨之一彻底避开了这个问题：我们不在乎你是否毕业。我们没有成绩，也没有考试。你需要对抗的重量应该小得多。One of the academy’s core tenets sidesteps this problem entirely: we don’t care whether you graduate. We don’t have grades or tests. The amount of weight you have to push against should be much lower.

主持人：当你遇到一个真正让你深受启发的18岁年轻人——一个让你觉得“我一定要花时间和这个人相处”的人——他们做了什么，让你如此感兴趣？Host: When you meet an 18-year-old who really inspires you—someone who makes you think, “I have to spend time with this person”—what are they doing that captures your interest?

阿姆贾德：我觉得首先要做的是——Amjad: I think the first thing is—

刚才聊着聊着，我想起曾经读过一篇科幻小说，叫《城市与群星》。故事讲的是一座由 AGI 统治的未来城市。人类基本上已经发明了 AGI，而它如今掌管着人们的生活。它解决了人类所有的问题：没有战争，也没有疾病，每个人都能永生，人们则把时间花在创作耗时千年的艺术项目上，或做各种各样的事情来打发时间。As we were talking, I remembered a science-fiction story I read once called The City and the Stars. It’s about a future city governed by AGI. Humanity has essentially invented AGI, and it now governs people’s lives. It solves all human problems: there are no wars or diseases, everyone lives forever, and people spend their time working on thousand-year art projects or doing all sorts of random things to fill their time.

但他们遇到了一个问题：积累的知识和记忆太多，以至于很难全都记在脑子里。于是他们发明了一种技术，让他们可以进入实验室压缩记忆，有点像我们今天对 AI 所做的上下文压缩。他们回顾自己的记忆，将其压缩，然后参加强化训练营，为自己的生活重新训练。But they run into a problem: they accumulate so much knowledge and memory that it becomes hard to keep it all in their heads. So they invent a technology that lets them go into a laboratory and compress their memories, a bit like the context compression we do with AI today. They review their memories, compress them, and then go through a boot camp to retrain for their lives.

他们发明了一种全新的出生方式，但从根本上说，你并没有变成一个新人。你仍然是原来的那个人，只不过是在编辑自己的记忆。后来系统出了故障，有个人从根本上变成了一个全新的人。他立刻开始惹麻烦。在新兵训练营里，他做出各种奇怪的新举动，所有人都反应道：“哇，这太疯狂了。你不该这么做。我们不是这么做事的。”他变得非常扰乱秩序。They’ve invented a new way to be born, but you’re not fundamentally a new person. You’re still the same person; you’re just editing your memories. Then a glitch happens in the system, and someone is born fundamentally new. He immediately starts causing problems. During boot camp, he does strange, new things, and everyone reacts, “Whoa, that’s crazy. You shouldn’t be doing that. That’s not how we do things.” He becomes very disruptive.

然后，当他们走进城里时，他开始提出问题：“外面有什么？星辰之中有什么？我们的城市边界之外又有什么？”Then, when they go out into the city, he starts asking questions: “What’s out there? What’s in the stars? What’s outside our city borders?”

他们说：“我们不谈论城市边界以外的事。”They say, “We don’t talk about what’s outside the city borders.”

外面听起来很危险。“It sounds dangerous out there.”

主持人：听起来有点像《羊毛战记》。Host: It sounds a bit like Silo.

Amjad：有点像《羊毛战记》，也有点像《辐射》。我不想透露太多剧透，但最终他有着强烈的动力去改变现状、探索星辰——这就是它被称为《城市与群星》的原因。他在外面发现了各种有趣的东西。Amjad: A little like Silo, a little like Fallout. I don’t want to give away too many spoilers, but eventually he has so much drive to change things and discover the stars—that’s why it’s called The City and the Stars. He finds all sorts of interesting things out there.

我想起了那个故事，因为当我们谈论大学是什么、又是为了什么而存在时，我认为还有一个相关的问题：年轻人在社会中有什么用处？I’m reminded of that story because, as we talk about what college is and what it’s for, I think a related question is: What is the utility of young people in society?

归根结底，年轻人的价值就在于质疑那些根深蒂固的信念——做个异端者。而在今天的大学里，情况几乎恰恰相反。它们会把任何外来的思想都从你脑子里赶出去。它们告诉你：“你很蠢。我们已经把一切都弄明白了。你得学我们的那一套。我们得让你为外面的世界做好准备，这样你才能找份工作，做个完美的公民，结婚生子，买房买车，然后从此幸福快乐地生活下去。”Ultimately, the utility of young people is to question deeply held beliefs—to be heretics. In today’s colleges, it’s almost the opposite. They beat any outside thought out of you. They tell you, “You’re stupid. We’ve figured everything out. You need to learn our way. We need to prepare you for the outside world so you can get a job, be a perfect citizen, get married, have kids, get a house and a car, and live happily ever after.”

那个世界已经不复存在了。你可以在大学里表现出色，最后却失业，还背负巨额债务。但这并不是唯一的问题。我们错失的真正的文明机遇，是《城市与群星》中的那个人。只有出现一次故障，才造就了一个头脑清醒、能够质疑根深蒂固信念的人。That world doesn’t exist anymore. You can do really well in college and still be unemployed with a huge debt. But that’s not the only issue. The real civilizational opportunity we’re missing is the person in The City and the Stars. It took a glitch to create someone with a clear mind who could question deeply held beliefs.

我们都有盲点。社会有盲点，硅谷也有很多。许多想法之所以没有在硅谷涌现，是因为这里存在一种单一文化——一种特定的思维方式。每种文化在某种程度上都是单一文化，哪怕是硅谷这样激进的文化。We all have blind spots. Society has blind spots, and Silicon Valley has plenty of them. There are lots of ideas that don’t come out of Silicon Valley because there’s a monoculture here—a certain way of thinking. Every culture is in some way a monoculture, even radical cultures like Silicon Valley.

我们需要年轻人做什么？我们需要他们去尝试。我们要鼓励他们挑战那些看似不可能的事。时不时地，他们就会取得突破——某件我们曾认为不可能的事情，突然因为技术或其他因素的变化而成为可能。What do we need from young people? We need them to experiment. We need to encourage them to try impossible things. Every now and then, they’ll have a breakthrough—something we thought was impossible that suddenly becomes possible because the technology or something else has changed.

归根结底，大学应该致力于此：鼓励头脑清醒、心境如禅且秉持第一性原理思维的人，去质疑那些根深蒂固的信念。Ultimately, college should be about that: giving people with clear minds, Zen mindsets, and first-principles mindsets the encouragement to question deeply held beliefs.

围绕好奇心与自由设计一所大学Designing a College Around Curiosity and Freedom

主持人：说得很好。假设你今天18岁，可以设计自己理想的学习体验：你上多少课、做什么项目、进行哪种深入学习，以及学习什么内容。你会将哪些原则融入其中？你会如何看待自己在2026年从18岁到22岁的这段时光？Host: That’s well said. Imagine you were 18 today and could design your ideal experience: how much you go to class, what projects you work on, what kind of deep study you pursue, and what you study. What principles would you build into it? How would you think about being 18 to 22 in 2026?

Amjad：我想去一所不会对我学什么作出硬性规定的大学。Amjad: I’d want to go to a college that isn’t prescriptive about what I learn.

我希望置身于一个有很多不同道路可供选择的环境中。也许那里有一门课程，讲的是我从未想过的事情，某个我所不了解的领域。I’d want an environment where there are lots of different paths. Maybe there’s a class about something I haven’t even thought about, something outside my world.

我们当时在谈史蒂夫·乔布斯。他最鼓舞人心的演讲之一，是他在斯坦福大学毕业典礼上的演讲；他在演讲中谈到了如何回头把事物联系起来。我认为，他上大学的方式堪称理想的大学经历。他就读于里德学院，但因为负担不起学费而退学，之后继续旁听各种课程，其中一门就是书法。We were talking about Steve Jobs. One of his most inspiring speeches was his Stanford commencement address, where he talked about connecting things backward. The way he approached college is, I think, an ideal college experience. He went to Reed College, but he couldn’t afford it, so he dropped out and kept dropping into different classes. One of them was calligraphy.

他不知道自己为什么对书法感兴趣；他只是选修了这门课，并学了起来。后来，在他们发明 Mac 及其用户界面时，他意识到应该采用比例字体，并允许人们选择不同的字体。这直接让他想起了大学时代——那时他学过字体和书法。He didn’t know why he was interested in calligraphy; he just took the class and learned it. Later, when they were inventing the Mac and its user interfaces, he realized they should have proportionally spaced fonts and let people select different fonts. That was a direct callback to his college days, when he’d learned about fonts and calligraphy.

现代社会认为这种漫无目的的探索毫无用处。我认为这是大学最有价值的事情之一。你能不能因为发现了全新、超出自己认知范围的事物，而选修一门改变人生方向的课程？这是我希望拥有的一点：有足够的自由选择自己学习的内容。Modern society thinks this kind of meandering is useless. I think it’s one of the most useful things about college. Can you take a class that changes the direction of your life because you discover something completely new and outside your world? That’s one thing I’d want: enough freedom to choose what I study.

还有一点是，如果我全心投入到某个项目中，就请给我空间和时间去完成它。我上大学时，出勤率是件很麻烦的事。他们会统计出勤次数，缺课六次就可能被开除。如果我一边上学，一边做各种各样的事、结识有趣的人，然后突然有了一个想法，正埋头疯狂地把它做出来，请给我一点余地。别开除我。The other thing is that if I’m engrossed in building something, give me the space and time to do it. One of the hard things about my college was attendance. They counted it, and if you missed six classes, you could be banned. If I’m going to school, doing lots of different things, meeting interesting people, and then I have an idea that I’m working on manically, give me room to do it. Don’t expel me.

主持人：没错。Host: Exactly.

阿姆贾德：人的素质也很重要。如果你身边都是思想守旧的人，你最终也会变得守旧。如果你身处一种鼓励人们质疑根深蒂固观念的环境中，我认为你也能做到这一点。Amjad: And the quality of the people matters. If you’re around conventionally minded people, eventually you’ll become conventionally minded. If you’re in an environment that encourages people to question deeply held beliefs, I think you’ll be able to do that.

我上的是加州大学伯克利分校——熊队加油！——在那里我过得很开心。我特别喜欢的一点是，大多数情况下，没人要求你必须去上课。有几个学期，我同时打三份工。很多时候，我该上班的时间和上课时间撞在一起。我会提前看期中考试安排，然后说：“好，这两场期中考试我得考。嘿，老板，这两天我能请假吗？”除此之外，我都在上班。I went to UC Berkeley—Go Bears!—and I enjoyed it a lot. One thing I really liked was that, in most situations, there was no expectation that you attend class. I had semesters when I had three jobs at once. Often, the time I was expected to work overlapped with class. I’d look at my midterm schedule in advance and say, “Okay, these are my two midterms. Hey, boss, can I take those two days off?” Otherwise, I was working.

这很有意思，因为回过头看，我其实很享受那段经历。但我有时会想，如果当时的环境能支持这件事，会发生什么？如果环境能鼓励它呢？It’s interesting because, looking back, I enjoyed that. But I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the environment had supported it. What if the environment had encouraged it?

如今我和学生交谈时，20 年后的他们都会这么做。过去不常见的事，如今正逐渐成为常态。奇怪的是，这仍然不受鼓励，也仍然不被允许。When I talk to students today, 20 years later, they all do this. What used to be unusual is becoming the norm. The strange thing is that it still isn’t encouraged. It’s still not allowed.

我真的很希望看到这样一个世界：人们可以放心地开启一段支线探索，做些古怪的事，而这些事说不定最终会令人惊叹。你应该能够利用大学的资源：计算机实验室、算力、生物实验室，或者其他任何资源。你不应该非得逆流而行。大学应该积极鼓励你这样做。I really want to see a world where it’s okay to go on a side quest and do something oddball that might turn out to be amazing. You should be able to use the college resources: the computer lab, the compute, the biology lab, whatever it is. You shouldn’t have to go against the grain. The college should actively encourage you.

事实上，如果你有个疯狂的想法正开始大受欢迎，学校就应该为你提供更多资源。你不应该把这件事瞒着学校。他们应该说：“天哪，这太棒了。我们再多给你一些资源吧。”In fact, if you have a crazy idea that’s taking off, the college should bring you more resources. You shouldn’t have to hide it from the college. They should be saying, “Oh my God, this is amazing. Let’s give you more.”

主持人：没错。有个叫埃里克的孩子，我觉得他是里奇的朋友。他因为躲在学校里，只能在卫生间接投资人的电话。学校应该指导他应对这些事，或者想办法为他提供支持——比如举办一场路演日。Host: Totally. There’s this kid, Eric, who I think is one of Rich’s friends. He has to take investor calls from the bathroom because he’s hiding at school. The school should be coaching him through it or enabling it somehow—maybe bringing in a demo day.

几点看法。回到书法：人们会培养起一些看似随机的兴趣，也许它们本来就是随机的，但这些兴趣可能会以意想不到的方式彼此关联。学校可以帮助人们建立这些联系。自然产生的兴趣很难强求。比如，我小时候痴迷篮球，但我也是那种会问数学老师“学这个有什么用？给我讲明白”的孩子。也许如果她当时说：“你这么痴迷篮球，就得弄懂工资帽”，或者“现在的篮球非常讲究分析。人们会用统计数据来评估球员，所以理解这些能让你更懂这项运动”，我就会来劲。A couple of comments. Going back to calligraphy: people develop interests that might seem random, and maybe they are random, but they can connect in unexpected ways. Schools can help make those connections. It’s hard to force natural interest. For example, I was obsessed with basketball as a kid, but I was also the kid who’d ask my math teacher, “What’s the point of this? Explain it to me.” Maybe I would have gotten excited if she’d said, “You’re obsessed with basketball. You need to understand the salary cap,” or, “Basketball is very analytical now. People use statistics and data to evaluate players, so understanding this will make you a better student of the game.” That would have excited me.

这就是我对 Alpha School 感到兴奋的原因。他们利用人们天生的兴趣，教会他们今后需要掌握的知识。That’s why I’m excited about Alpha School. They take people’s natural interests and use them to teach things they’ll need to know over time.

项目式学习与实践技能Project-Based Learning and Practical Skills

Amjad：难点在于，教育领域的每个人——如果你愿意这么说的话，包括学术行业和学术正典——都明白，要是每个学生都能拥有量身定制的课程，那会是件好事。Alpha School 的 Joe Liemandt 总是谈到这一点。问题是，这在实际操作中似乎根本不可能。Amjad: The hard thing is that everyone in education—the academic industry, if you will, and the academic canon—understands that it would be great if every student had a customized curriculum. Joe Liemandt of Alpha School talks about this all the time. The problem is that it seems practically impossible.

但我认为，我们现在已经到了恰恰相反的阶段。这不仅可行，而且很难想象你为什么不这么做。But I think we’ve now reached a point where the opposite is true. It’s not just possible; it’s hard to imagine why you wouldn’t do it.

在学院里，如果你要学习编程，我不希望你只是去上 Python 课。去用 Python 做点让你兴奋的东西吧。把它当作学习这门语言的工具。如今 AI 的一大优势在于，每个学生都可以独立做到这一点。他们不需要量身定制的教学大纲，也不需要一套练习题。他们只需要自由和信心，知道自己可以这样做——而且我们也很乐于看到他们这样做。At the academy, if you’re going to learn coding, I don’t want you just to take a class on Python. Go build something you’re excited about in Python. Use it as a tool to learn the language. The great thing about AI today is that every student can do this on their own. They don’t need a customized syllabus or a set of exercises. They just need the freedom and confidence to know they’re allowed to do it—and that we’re excited about it.

主持人：这方面的流行说法是“项目式学习”。它不该只是个流行说法，而应该成为常态。学习某样东西时却不知道它有什么用，这是现代社会才出现的一种奇怪做法。上统计课，却从来没学过统计学可以用来分析篮球，或其他你关心的事情，这实在很奇怪。Host: The buzzword for that is “project-based learning.” There shouldn’t be a buzzword for it; it should be the standard. The idea that you learn something without knowing its utility is a very modern invention. It’s strange that you could take a statistics class and never learn that you could use statistics for basketball or for something else you care about.

长期以来，我们的学习方式一直存在这种本末倒置：学习某些东西时，并不知道它有什么用，也不知道如何在现实世界中加以应用。对我这样的人，以及许多注重实用的人来说，纯粹追求知识并不能激励我。真正激励我的是技能。学习某样东西能让我掌握哪些技能，帮助我创造自己想要的东西，实现梦想？For a long time, we’ve had this inversion in how we learn. You learn things without knowing their utility or how you’d apply them in the real world. For someone like me—and for many people who are pragmatically minded—the pure pursuit of knowledge isn’t motivating. I’m motivated by skills. What skills can something give me to help me build what I want and achieve my dreams?

偶尔，你会遇到一位老师，他能通过讲解你可以掌握的技能来激励你。Every now and then, you find a teacher who can motivate you by explaining the skills you can acquire.

阿姆贾德：完全同意。Amjad: Totally.

主持人：我们正试图回应一种有意思的批评：一些学校环境几乎不教实用技能，也没有让学生为现实世界做好准备，尽管它们声称做到了。不过，也存在一种相反的批评：有些人过早走上职业化道路，失去了童年，也没有花时间在智识上或作为一个人来充实自己。Host: There’s an interesting critique we’re trying to address: some school environments teach very few practical skills and don’t prepare students for the real world, even though they claim to. But there’s an opposite critique, too: that some people professionalize too soon and don’t have a childhood, or don’t spend time cultivating themselves intellectually or as people.

人们觉得上大学能获得一种难以言喻的体验：结识新朋友、交朋友、参加派对、研读经典名著，等等。你怎么看待人们所获得的那些超越创建公司或在公司工作所需技术技能的东西？There’s an ineffable quality that people think they get from college: meeting new people, making friends, going to parties, studying the great books, and so on. What do you think about what people gain beyond the technical skills needed to build or work at a company?

介于大学与初创公司之间的折中选择A Middle Ground Between College and Startups

阿姆贾德：我觉得如今的年轻人面临着一种不公平的选择。要么去读四年制大学，生活中有很多明确的安排，规定他们该做什么——上课、写作业、参加考试、拿成绩；要么创办初创公司，明天就有人给他们五万美元。Amjad: I think young people today are given an unfair choice. Either they go to a four-year school with lots of structure around what they should be doing—attending classes, doing homework, taking tests, getting grades—or they can start a startup and have someone give them $50,000 tomorrow.

我认为，仍然会有很多人上大学，并且热爱大学生活。也有一些年轻人——甚至是16岁或17岁的孩子——应该开始创业。但我认为，有很多人和我17或18岁时一样，知道自己想从商，却能从几年没有压力的探索和学习中受益。I think lots of people will still go to college and love it. And there are young people—even 16- or 17-year-olds—who should start startups. But I think there’s a large group of people who, like me when I was 17 or 18, knew they wanted to go into business but would have benefited from a couple of years to explore and learn without pressure.

就我个人而言，我认为投资人这条路应该少走得多。只有少数青少年应该去融资。资助很好：做一些暂时性的事情，并明确说明这只是暂时的。但对大多数人来说，18岁就承受做出10年承诺的压力并不合适。大学的体制也并不适合所有人。Personally, I think the investor track should be much less used. Only a small number of teenagers should be raising money. Grants are great: do something temporary, and make it clear that it’s temporary. But the pressure of making a 10-year commitment at 18 isn’t right for most people. The structure of college isn’t right for everybody, either.

这种折中状态让我很兴奋：你有两年时间可以自由探索、做任何想做的事，不必承受压力，同时硅谷会提供信息和资源。有了很棒的想法，就能获得更多支持。This middle ground is exciting to me: two years when you can explore and do whatever you want without pressure, while Silicon Valley provides information and resources. When you have a cool idea, you get more support.

主持人：在编程中，我们有“过早优化”这个概念。有句话说，过早优化是万恶之源：你还不知道优化一个程序是否有意义或会产生重大影响，就开始着手优化了。Host: In programming, we have the concept of premature optimization. There’s a saying that premature optimization is the root of all evil: you start optimizing a program before you know whether it’s going to be relevant or consequential.

很多创业行为其实都是过早优化。我看到不少年轻人身处这样的圈子：朋友们正在融很多钱，有些人还成了独角兽。他们的动力变成了嫉妒，这是一种消极的情绪，而不是积极的动力。他们还没想清楚自己是否感兴趣，就先认定了一个点子，并为此融资。他们在还没真正走到那一步时，就开始针对一条尚未抵达的路径进行优化。A lot of starting startups is premature optimization. I see many kids who are part of a group where their friends are raising lots of money and some are becoming unicorns. Their motivation becomes envy, which is negative, rather than something positive. They pre-commit to an idea they aren’t even interested in and raise money for it. They’re optimizing for a path they haven’t really reached yet.

这就是为什么我总会回到好奇心这个话题上。真正驱动你的是什么？当你找到一个想要用一生——或接下来十年——去投入的想法时，它会有如此强大的吸引力，让你无法回避。That’s why I always come back to curiosity. What’s actually driving you? When you find an idea you want to dedicate your life—or the next 10 years—to, it’ll have so much gravity that you won’t be able to avoid it.

对我来说，我曾努力不去创办 Replit。我刻意避免创办它，但它不知怎么就自己发展成了一家初创公司。For me, I tried not to start Replit. I actively tried not to start it, but it kind of exploded into a startup on its own.

Amjad：你应该有这种感觉：“我想我不得不这么做”，因为它背后的势头太强了。Amjad: That’s the feeling you should get: “I guess I have to do it,” because there’s so much momentum behind it.

我还觉得现在正在发生一些带有掠夺性的事情。我听说风投会找斯坦福的学生，在他们还没想出点子之前就给他们一百万美元，根本不是五万美元那么点钱。你一开始着手做自己的点子，就已经有了股权结构表。I also think there’s something predatory happening right now. I’ve heard that VCs go to Stanford students and give them a million dollars—not even $50,000—before they have an idea. The moment you start your idea, you already have a cap table.

主持人：我觉得这有点像音乐行业。Kanye 谈过这个行业有多么具有掠夺性：你找来一位年轻艺人，用合同把他们牢牢套住，而他们甚至都看不懂合同。Host: I think it’s a bit like the music industry. Kanye has talked about how predatory it can be: you find a young artist, lock them into a contract, and they don’t even understand the contract.

幸运的是，在硅谷我们有 SAFE，这要归功于 YC 和 Paul Graham 的杰出贡献。但这种做法仍然可能带有一定的剥削性：你让一个年轻人提前承诺了本不该承诺的事情。Luckily, in Silicon Valley we have SAFEs, which are a great contribution from YC and Paul Graham. But it can still be somewhat predatory. You’re taking a young person and pre-committing them to something they shouldn’t have committed to.

很高兴你能来到这档播客，也能更广泛地参与学院的事务，因为你是一位企业家、建设者、黑客、爱折腾的人，而且非常务实，但同时也是一位知识分子。你求知欲旺盛，博览历史、经济、文化和政治方面的书籍。你也会花时间琢磨网络迷因，并在这方面追随自己的兴趣。It’s interesting to have you on this podcast and involved with the academy more broadly because you’re an entrepreneur, builder, hacker, tinkerer, and very pragmatic, but you’re also an intellectual. You’re curious and widely read across history, economics, culture, and politics. You spend time on memes and pursue your interests there.

你既没有脱离现实的经济生活，也不是一台自动机器。有些人一心扑在事业上，满脑子想的都是赚更多的钱，或是让一个项目取得成功。人们很容易被推上这两条道路之一。你一直都是这样吗？人们该如何在规划职业生涯时保持务实，同时也为求知欲留出空间——即使这种求知欲看起来漫无目的，或与他们的职业毫无关联？You’re neither divorced from the economic real world nor an automaton. Some people are so career-focused that all they think about is making more money or making a project successful. People can get funneled into either of these paths. Have you always been this way? How can people be pragmatic about their careers while also making space for intellectual curiosity, even when it seems random or disconnected from their career?

Amjad：我常常在想要做点什么和想要阅读、探索、看看外面有什么之间摇摆不定。两者相辅相成。我从探索的事物中积累了足够的知识和想法，然后就特别想用它们做出点什么。Amjad: I tend to oscillate between wanting to build something and wanting to read, explore, and see what’s out there. They feed on each other. I accumulate enough knowledge and ideas from the things I explore, and then I really want to build something with them.

比如最近，我突然迷上了国际象棋。这算是入坑很晚了；通常人们六岁时就会开始学国际象棋。我六岁的孩子很快也要开始学了，估计会打败我。Recently, for example, I got really into chess. That’s late in life; usually you get into chess when you’re six. My six-year-old is getting into chess soon and will probably beat me.

我不知道自己为什么会对国际象棋感兴趣，于是开始编写程序来解决国际象棋问题。后来，我开始训练模型，并思考为什么大型语言模型（比如 ChatGPT）下棋这么差。I didn’t know why I was interested, so I started writing programs to solve chess. Then I started training models and wondering why large language models—like ChatGPT—are so bad at chess.

主持人：真的吗？Host: Really?

Amjad：它们会凭空编造棋步之类的。我很好奇：如果 ARC-AGI 的得分已经那么高，这些模型也几乎达到 AGI 了，为什么下棋还是这么差？于是我开始训练一个 LLM 下棋。Amjad: They hallucinate moves and all that. I wondered: if the ARC-AGI scores are getting up there and these models are almost AGI, why are they bad at chess? So I started training an LLM to play chess.

我花了很多时间探索如何训练模型。此前我从未训练过模型。我意识到，如今 AI 已经能够进行机器学习了。有些人称之为递归式自我改进。2024 年，Replit Agent 发布时——那时“氛围编程”这个说法还没出现——智能体突然具备了编程能力，编程从根本上发生了改变。I spent a lot of time exploring how to train models. I’d never trained one before. I realized that AI is now capable of doing machine learning. Some people call it recursive self-improvement. In 2024, when Replit Agent came out—before “vibe coding” was coined—agents suddenly became capable of coding, and coding fundamentally changed.

我觉得我们在机器学习领域也正处于一个类似的时刻。你可以把它叫作“氛围研究”（vibe research）或“自动研究”（autoresearch）——我想这是 Karpathy 用的说法。我在这个领域花了很多时间，现在我正在 Replit 做一些事情，想把它带给全世界：让任何人都能成为机器学习研究人员，或者让任何拥有数据的企业主都能微调模型，解决某个特定问题。I think we’re at a similar moment with machine learning. You could call it “vibe research” or “autoresearch”—I think that’s Karpathy’s term. I spent a lot of time in that world, and now I’m working on something at Replit to bring it to the world: a way for anyone to become a machine learning researcher, or for any business owner with data to fine-tune a model to solve a particular problem.

当我开始下棋时，并没有一条显而易见的推理链条会让我想到为 Replit 开辟一条新的业务线。我只是顺着自己感兴趣的事情去做。对我来说，这类事情最终总会把我带向某个方向。When I started playing chess, there was no obvious chain of reasoning that would lead me to build a new business line for Replit. I just followed something I was interested in. For me, that kind of thing invariably leads somewhere.

梗和文化也是如此。我会对某个偶然遇到的网络亚文化产生兴趣，并从中了解一些关于世界、社会、市场或世界未来走向的东西。The same goes for memes and culture. I get interested in some random internet subculture and learn something about the world, society, markets, or where the world is headed.

主持人：而你有一种内在动力。你心里痒痒的，就会顺着这种感觉去做。有时候，这种冲动会让你动手做点什么；有时候，则会促使你去学点东西。很多孩子身上的这股冲劲被磨掉了。久而久之，他们学会了把它抛在一边，转而按部就班地过关。Host: And you have alpha. You have an itch, and you listen to it. Sometimes the itch leads you to build something; sometimes it leads you to learn something. A lot of kids have the itch beaten out of them. Over time, they learn to ignore it in favor of going through the hoops.

学会如何应对重重关卡固然有用，但学会倾听自己的好奇心也同样重要——这不一定意味着要比现在的人更注重好奇心，但我们需要学会既能跟随，也能引领。It’s helpful to learn how to go through hoops, but it’s also helpful to learn how to listen to your curiosity—not necessarily more than people do now, but we need to learn how to follow as well as lead.

我觉得人们整个高中时期，甚至常常包括大学时期，都在学习如何服从：别人告诉你该做什么，你就照做。I think people spend their entire time in high school, and often college, learning how to follow: someone tells you something, and you do it.

阿姆贾德：我认为，企业的未来将会发生变化。硅谷已经开展了许多尝试，旨在改变公司的性质以及企业的运作方式。Amjad: My belief is that the future of companies is going to change. Silicon Valley has seen lots of experiments to change the nature of firms and how companies work.

主持人：合弄制？Host: Holacracy?

Amjad：合弄制。Medium 就这么做过。GitHub 曾尝试取消管理者。这些尝试都以惊人的方式惨败了。Amjad: Holacracy. Medium did that. GitHub tried having no managers. Those efforts blew up in spectacular ways.

但我认为这曾是一个技术问题。如今，智能体可以充当组织内部的黏合剂，在后台默默处理繁琐的行政事务，让人们真正自主地投入自己最感兴趣的工作。人工智能可以评估你的影响力。But I think it was a technology problem. Now agents can function as the glue within organizations. They can handle bureaucracy invisibly in the background, while people have real autonomy to work on what they find most interesting. AI can judge your impact.

我对此还没有完全成形的想法，但我在我们公司看到了这一趋势。我已经改变了公司的运营方式，我们也会讨论“自动驾驶公司”这个概念——最终，公司将能够自行运转。I don’t have fully formed thoughts about this, but I see it in our company. I’ve changed how I run it, and we talk about the idea of a “self-driving company”—eventually, the company will run itself.

主持人：这很有意思：我不知道事情会朝哪个方向发展，但我知道它一定会改变。我们现在做的一切都让人感觉如此不同。Host: It’s funny: I don’t have an opinion about where this is going, but I know it’s going to change. Everything we’re doing now feels so different.

在创办这所学院的过程中，我花了这么多时间在 Replit 上制作融资路演演示文稿。谢谢。我一直在使用 Claude 和 ChatGPT——借助这些服务加快工作进度，并设想它们会如何改变整个组织。In starting the academy, I’ve spent all this time building the pitch deck in Replit. Thank you. I’ve been using Claude and ChatGPT—using all these services to speed up my work and imagining how that changes an entire organization.

我确信的一点是，一切都将改变，而且变化速度会比你想象的快得多。如果你不能从根本上理解这一点，就很难完成这种转变。The thing I feel certain about is that everything is going to change, and it’s going to change a lot faster than you think. If you don’t understand it natively, it’s going to be hard to make that shift.

Amjad：或者，如果你正在学习过去的方式。Amjad: Or if you’re learning the ways of the past.

主持人：没错。这样一来，你就被局限在一种思维和工作方式中，未来将处于根本性的劣势。Host: Correct. Then you’re locked into a way of thinking and working that will put you at a fundamental disadvantage in the future.

回到关于跟随的话题：我确实认为，学会如何跟随很重要。Back to the point about following: I do think learning how to follow is important.

Amjad：让我换一种说法。你想要足够特立独行，才能有有趣的想法——敢于唱反调，追随自己的好奇心，而不是只走过场。但我们都认识一些人，他们太不合群了，以至于无法和任何人合作。他们把所有人都得罪了。Amjad: Let me phrase it another way. You want to be disagreeable enough to have interesting ideas—to be contrarian, to follow your own curiosity, rather than just going through the motions. But we all know people who are so disagreeable that they can’t work with anybody. They alienate everyone.

或许，对跟随者的更广义理解是：你需要学会如何与人合作、在各种体系中游刃有余，并得到自己想要的结果——或者说，实现最好的结果。Maybe a broader way of thinking about following is that you need to learn how to work with people, navigate systems, and get what you want—or achieve the best outcome.

尊重长辈很重要，但也要真正明白，他们并非什么都已经弄清楚了。尊重很重要。加入一家公司时，你应该尊重它已经建立起来的一切，但也要认识到，许多方面都还不够完善，并尽可能多地推动改变。There’s something important about respecting the elders, but also truly understanding that they haven’t figured everything out. Respect is important. When you join a company, you should respect what it has already built, but you should also recognize that many things are inadequate and change as much as you can.

在 Replit，我把所有会议室都以计算机科学和技术领域的杰出人物命名。我们有一间 Marc Andreessen 会议室——他就是浏览器的发明者，你知道的。At Replit, I named all the conference rooms after great people in computer science and technology. We have a Marc Andreessen room—the inventor of the browser, as you know.

主持人：当然。Host: Of course.

Amjad：我们还有 Linus Torvalds、Robert Noyce 等人。我想告诉公司里的人的是：我们尊重过去，但我们就是要改变它，而且不会为此道歉。人们会对我们很生气。Amjad: We also have Linus Torvalds, Robert Noyce, and others. What I try to tell people at the company is: we respect the past, but we’re unapologetically going to change it. People are going to be mad at us.

我不知道你还记不记得2025年，那时我因为说人们不应该再学编程而遭到抵制。I don’t know if you remember 2025, when I was canceled for saying people shouldn’t learn how to code anymore.

主持人：哇，那才是一年前的事。Host: Wow. That was only a year ago.

阿姆贾德：如今，那些曾经反对我的人也会说：“我不再读代码了。我只用提示词来写代码。”Amjad: Now the same people who were against me say, “I don’t read code anymore. I just prompt my code.”

主持人：真不可思议，我有那么多事情都看错了——或者说看对了，只是早了五年或十年。我喜欢硅谷的一点是，人们就是不断向前。他们对此很坦然，也接受这些观点。Host: It’s amazing how many things I’ve been wrong about—or right about five or ten years early. What I love about Silicon Valley is that people just move forward. They’re okay with it. They accept the takes.

信任、学生自主性与富有成效的打破规则Trust, Student Autonomy, and Productive Rule-Breaking

我也很喜欢硅谷的文化。空闲时间里，我一直在奥克兰参与当地的政治志愿活动。I also love the culture of the Valley. In my free time, I’ve been volunteering in local politics in Oakland.

Amjad：这肯定是个支线任务。它到底为什么会相关？Amjad: It’s a side quest for sure. Why would it be relevant at all?

主持人：这确实算是一项支线任务。我觉得它在很多方面都帮到了我的事业。这些技能在两个方向上都极具可迁移性。Host: It really is a side quest. I think it’s helped me in so many ways in business. The skills are extremely transferable in both directions.

最有意思的一点，是认识到信任有多么宝贵，以及整个社会建立在信任之上的基础，会如何改变你前进的方式。以非营利组织为例：如果你经营着一家非营利组织，正在筹款，有人告诉你：“我会捐给你5万美元”，那么即使对方已经口头承诺，最终这笔钱真的到账的概率也许只有20%到50%。One of the most interesting things is appreciating how valuable trust is, and how much a foundation of trust throughout a society changes the way you can move forward. Take nonprofits as a simple example. If you run a nonprofit, raise money, and someone tells you, “I’ll give you $50,000,” there’s maybe a 20-to-50% chance that money will actually land in your bank account after they’ve made a verbal commitment.

阿姆贾德：对。Amjad: Right.

主持人：口头承诺在硅谷没什么分量。我觉得可能性大概在75%到100%之间，具体取决于你在和谁交谈，以及你是谁。Host: Verbal commitments don’t carry much weight in Silicon Valley. I think the likelihood is probably 75 to 100%, depending on who you’re talking to and who you are.

这种差异会改变你的经营方式。如果我知道这笔钱即将到账，就能放心推进业务。等支票到手时，我已经取得了六周的进展，因此六周后的这张支票更有价值。That difference changes how you operate. I can confidently move forward with my business if I know the money is coming. By the time the check arrives, I’ve made six weeks of progress, so the check is more valuable six weeks later.

反过来也成立。缺乏信任时，你就会开始担心：“要是这位捐赠者不高兴了怎么办？我是不是应该换种做法？”你没有在践行自己的使命，而是满心焦虑、压力重重。我认为，硅谷所展现的信任水平也可以应用到学校中。The reverse is true, too. Without trust, you start worrying: “What if this donor gets upset? Should I do this differently?” You’re not fulfilling your mission; you’re anxious and stressed. I think Silicon Valley offers a level of trust that can be applied to schools.

Amjad：具体来说是哪方面？Amjad: In what way?

主持人：信任学生，让他们做自己想做的事，沿着感兴趣的线索探索，是我们所能独特提供的。硅谷是这样一个地方：通常，有独特想法或行事方式不同的人都能被接纳，并获准尝试。Host: Trusting students to do what they want and follow the threads they’re interested in is something we can uniquely offer. Silicon Valley is a place where someone with a unique idea or a different way of doing things can generally be accepted and allowed to try it.

当然，也有社交规则。你不能到处对人刻薄，或者撒谎。规矩没那么宽松。There are social rules, of course. You can’t go around being mean to everyone or lying. It’s not that permissive.

但如果我们相信年轻人，让他们追随自己的热情，并赋予他们力量——即使我们觉得这很疯狂——他们就会创造出你所说的那个未来。他们会找到真正行之有效的下一代合弄制。But if we trust young people to follow what they want to do and empower them—even if we think it’s crazy—they’ll build the future you’re talking about. They’ll figure out the next version of holacracy that actually works.

Amjad：我问你一个棘手的问题。你打算怎么处理那些捣乱分子？肯定会有人搞破坏。扎克曾经开发过 FaceMash，这事儿很有争议。或者也可能有人入侵某个系统。Amjad: Let me ask you a tricky question. What are you going to do with the troublemakers? There will inevitably be people who break things. Zach famously built FaceMash, which was controversial. Or someone might hack into something.

主持人：有些事情已经越过红线，构成了犯罪。Host: There are things that cross a red line into criminality.

阿姆贾德：当然。总得划定界限。如果有人违反我们的性骚扰政策，或者当着所有人的面残酷地对待某人，就必须有规矩。我们需要营造一种信任文化，鼓励互利共赢的行为。Amjad: Sure. You have to draw a line somewhere. If someone violates our sexual harassment policy or is cruel to someone in front of everyone, there have to be rules. We need a culture of trust and positive-sum behavior.

与此同时，学院的一项核心原则彻底绕开了这个问题：我们没有成绩，也没有考试。人们需要承受的压力应该小得多。许多这样的挑战也就没那么重要了。你想开发 FaceMash？那就去做吧。谁在乎呢？我愿意捍卫你这么做的权利。如果有人在播客上问起这件事，我可以说：“是啊，那想法挺奇怪的。我不喜欢它，也不知道那孩子当时是怎么想的——但他们有权做自己该做的事。”At the same time, one of the academy’s core tenets sidesteps this problem entirely: we don’t have grades or tests. The amount of weight people have to push against should be a lot less. So many of these challenges matter less. You want to build FaceMash? Go for it. Who cares? I’m willing to defend your right to do that. And if someone asks me about it on a podcast, I can say, “Yeah, that was a weird idea. I didn’t love it, and I don’t know what that kid was thinking—but they got to do what they got to do.”

如果你营造出一种信任的氛围，并允许这类事情发生，就能避免形成反权威的心态，同时激发大量创造力，带来许多机会。If you create an environment of trust and allow that kind of thing to happen, you can avoid creating an anti-authoritarian mindset and open up a lot of creativity and opportunity.

主持人：我也认为，我们可以找到机会，以健康的方式引导人们挑战界限的动力。Host: I also think there’s an opportunity to channel the drive to test boundaries in a healthy way.

前几天我读到一个故事，说有个孩子侵入了某个政府系统，正面临两年监禁。在一次采访中，他谈到自己是在 Roblox 上学会黑客技术的。显然，很多人都在 Roblox 上学习编程和黑客技术，这已经成了一股热潮。I was reading a story the other day about a kid who hacked into some government system and is facing two years in prison. In an interview, he talked about learning to hack on Roblox. Apparently, there’s a big trend of people learning programming and hacking on Roblox.

我当时正在和 Roblox 的创始人兼首席执行官 Dave 聊天。要是能有某种沙盒环境，让人们在里面玩耍、发现自己的才能，然后进入网络安全领域的工作，那就太好了。I was talking to Dave, the founder and CEO of Roblox. It would be great to have some kind of sandbox where people can play, discover their talents, and then be funneled into cybersecurity jobs.

阿姆贾德：或者甚至让他们进入政府部门。与其把这些孩子送进监狱，不如让他们去国家安全局（NSA）或其他地方工作。我们现在急需网络安全人才。为什么要把他们关进监狱？Amjad: Or even into the government. Instead of sending these kids to jail, take them to work at the NSA or somewhere else. We need cybersecurity talent right now. Why put them in jail?

主持人：这里有一条界限。有些孩子在用我不太能接受的方式搞黑客活动。但另一些孩子这么做是有原因的，而且坦白说，他们的做法完全没问题。如果我们能稍微宽容一些，就能为他们创造更多机会，也能让他们的才能发挥到更有益的地方。Host: There’s a line. Some kids are hacking in ways I wouldn’t be comfortable with. But others are doing it for reasons and in ways that are honestly fine. If we can be a little more permissive, we can create more opportunities for them and repurpose their talent.

Amjad：我小时候特别喜欢的一个网站叫 Hack This Site——hackthissite.org。我不知道它现在还在不在。这是一个内置漏洞的网站。Amjad: One site I was really into growing up was called Hack This Site—hackthissite.org. I don’t know if it’s still around. It’s a website with vulnerabilities built in.

主持人：这就像夺旗游戏。Host: It’s like Capture the Flag.

阿姆贾德：没错。我们正在深入探讨其中一个方面，但你也可以在学院设立漏洞赏金计划。Amjad: Exactly. We’re digging into one aspect of this, but you could have a bug bounty program at the academy.

主持人：当然。Host: For sure.

Amjad：或者鼓励学生参与其他学校或公司的漏洞赏金计划。大多数公司都有这类计划。Amjad: Or encourage students to participate in bounty programs at other schools or companies. Most companies have one.

主持人：当然。回到什么时候该听从前辈、什么时候该打破常规这个问题：真正重要的是培养判断力。规则和经验法则取决于具体情境和个案。你需要通过经验来培养判断力——让学生自己做决定、经历失败，并从中吸取教训。Host: Absolutely. Going back to when to trust the elders and when to disrupt: what’s really important to develop is discernment. Rules and heuristics depend on the context and the case. You develop discernment through experience—by letting students make their own decisions, fail, and learn from them.

你在这档播客里创造了“技术主义”这个词。我也要创造一个词：“元极致化”——懂得什么时候该跟随直觉，什么时候这么做可能会惹上麻烦。这与不对称的上行收益和不对称的下行风险有关。你需要积累经验，而大量以项目为基础的学习——或者说，单纯让人们更自主地支配时间——就是为了给他们更多机会去选择一条路、取得成功、遭遇失败，并从中汲取经验。You coined “technicism” on this podcast. I’ll coin “meta-maxing”: knowing when to follow your instincts and when doing so might get you into trouble. It relates to asymmetric upside and asymmetric downside. You need experience, and a lot of project-based learning—or simply giving people more control over their time—is about giving them more opportunities to choose a path, succeed, fail, and learn from it.

品格、伦理与成人之路Character, Ethics, and Becoming an Adult

这是我的最后一个问题。有些人会说：“还记得彼得·蒂尔推出他的奖学金计划时吗？当时人们对他很不满。他们说，大学是让你学会如何做一个好人的地方。”除了技术技能，甚至智力发展之外，还有更深层的东西。人们会想到《死亡诗社》：你18岁，正在成长为一个完整的人。Here’s my last question. Some people would say, “Remember when Peter Thiel launched his fellowship? People were mad at him. They said college is where you learn how to be a good person.” There’s something beyond technical skills and even intellectual development. People think of Dead Poets Society: you’re 18, you’re becoming a person.

在湾区，你所处的环境既非常注重职业发展，又充满求知氛围。你如何看待价值观、道德观和伦理观的培养，以及成长为成年人的过程？In the Bay Area, you’re in an environment that is both very career-oriented and highly intellectual. How do you think about cultivating values, morals, ethics, and the process of becoming an adult?

Amjad：这很有意思。我去过世界各地，去过难民营，也去过亿万富翁的家，还结识过各种背景的人。我遇到过的最善良、最体贴、最脚踏实地的一些人，就在硅谷。Amjad: It’s interesting. I’ve traveled all over the world. I’ve been to refugee camps, billionaire’s houses, and met people from all sorts of backgrounds. Some of the kindest, most thoughtful, most grounded people I’ve ever met are here in Silicon Valley.

这并不意味着每个人都是那样的。确实有些蠢货赚了很多钱。我并不尊重所有赚了钱的人。但我认为，一个正和、互信度高的生态系统能够孕育出非常了不起的人。That doesn’t mean everyone is like that. There are real idiots who’ve made a lot of money. I don’t respect everyone who’s made money. But I think a positive-sum, high-trust ecosystem breeds really amazing human beings.

人际交往能力是学院的根本支柱。我们希望我们的毕业生、学员、研究员——无论最终称他们为什么——都能为社会和世界带来积极影响。学院的使命之一，就是创造一个正和世界。Interpersonal skills are an absolute pillar of the academy. We want our graduates, attendees, fellows—whatever we end up calling them—to be positive influences on society and the world. One of the academy’s missions is to create a positive-sum world.

我们坚信，花两年时间让自己成长、结识他人，并营造一种环境，让人们看到一种常被忽视、但在旧金山确实存在的文化所带来的益处。We absolutely believe in spending two years growing as a human being, meeting other people, and creating an environment where people can see the benefits of a culture that many people don’t pay attention to, but that’s very much here in San Francisco.

我认为，在这里，拥有好人的声誉很有价值。人们会把自己的钱和公司的治理托付给你。在大学里培养这种品格意识很重要，成为一个身心健全的人也很重要。I think having a reputation as a good person is valuable here. People trust you with their money and with governing your company. Developing that sense of character is important in a university, and being a well-adjusted person matters.

有一段时间，有些人扮演着自闭症天才的角色。也许在某个时候，这招确实奏效了。我记得 Sequoia 写过一篇关于 SBF 的博客文章——简直是宝藏。他们把文章删了，但你可以在 archive.org 上找到。For a while, some people played the role of the autistic genius. Maybe at some point it paid off. I remember the Sequoia blog post about SBF—that was gold. They deleted it, but you can find it on archive.org.

我觉得那种做法现在已经行不通了。硅谷如今不再是一种叛逆文化，而是一个体制，是既有格局的一部分。我们也必须与世界其他地方接轨。大家需要明白，我们肩负着责任。我们不是只在自己人之间谈论这些事。I don’t think that works anymore. Silicon Valley isn’t a renegade culture now; it’s an institution, part of the establishment. We also have to interface with the rest of the world. People need to understand that we have a responsibility. We’re not just talking among ourselves.

当圈外人不了解这项技术时，我们使用的语言就很重要。伯尼·桑德斯读了 Dwarkesh 的博客文章，而我批评了 Maresh 使用的措辞。在我看来，那篇文章并没有让不了解这项技术的人更加理解它。他们可能会从中学到错误的教训。When people outside the field don’t understand the technology, the language we use matters. Bernie Sanders read Dwarkesh’s blog post, and I criticized Maresh for the language he used. In my opinion, that post didn’t create more understanding for people who don’t understand the technology. They could learn the wrong lessons from it.

我认为，学院培养出身心健全、适应良好的成年人很重要：他们既能说圈内人的语言——这很重要——最终也能在国会面前发言。I think it’s important for the academy to create well-adjusted adults who can speak the language of the in-group—which is important—but can also eventually appear before Congress.

主持人：最后，关于培养价值观、做一个好人，你有什么想说的吗？学校环境对此有帮助吗？我们提到了那些经典著作，教一些相关内容会很有益。Host: Lastly, is there anything you want to say about cultivating values and being a good person? Does a school environment contribute to that? We mentioned the great books; it would be good to teach some of those things.

阿姆贾德：我花了很多时间自学伦理学和道德哲学。比如，我读了大量功利主义著作，最终还是否定了它。我不认为世界就是这样运转的。Amjad: I’ve spent a lot of time studying ethics and morality on my own. I read a lot of the utilitarian corpus, for example, and ultimately rejected it. I don’t think that’s the way of the world.

我通过广泛阅读、反思自我，并得出关于自己希望如何在世间行事的结论，找到了自己的道德指南针。我可能会说，自己的理念最接近亚里士多德的美德伦理学。这个理念是，无论有没有人在看，也无论会产生什么影响，我都应该以一种令自己感到自豪的方式行事。I found my moral compass by reading widely, introspecting, and coming to conclusions about how I want to act in the world. I might describe myself as closest to virtue ethics, from Aristotle. The idea is that I should act in a way I’d be proud of, regardless of who’s watching or what the impact is.

奇怪的是，如果你品德高尚、秉持正确的原则，最终的效果就是让效用最大化。你还需要随着时间推移而改变，并弄清世界的发展方向，以便以恰当的方式融入其中。In a strange way, if you’re virtuous and have the right principles, the net effect is that you maximize utility. You also need to change over time and figure out where the world is headed so you can fit into it in the right way.

博雅教育自有其价值：阅读这些材料，并试着理解自己对如何行动、如何展现自我的感受。There’s value in the liberal arts: reading this material and trying to understand how you feel about how you want to act and present yourself.

主持人：有一点让我更认同你的观点，那就是这个世界变化太大了。在一个不断变化的世界里，很难坚持僵化的原则，或者僵化的哲学。Host: One thing that makes me more sympathetic to your argument is that the world is changing so much. It’s hard to have rigid principles—or a rigid philosophy—in a world that’s changing.

阿姆贾德：没错。奇怪的是，反过来也成立。当我们正迈入奇点时，你不可能成为结果主义功利主义者。你无法真正预测未来，而结果主义取决于对未来的预测。Amjad: Right. And, strangely, the opposite is also true. You can’t be a consequentialist utilitarian when we’re entering the singularity. You can’t really predict the future, and consequentialism depends on predicting the future.

现在是个艰难的时期。我认为，你需要一些能够随着时间不断演变的原则。你需要珍视一些根本性的真理，但这些真理应该尽可能少。It’s a difficult time. I think you need principles that evolve over time. You need some fundamental truths that you hold dearly, but they should be as few as possible.

主持人：最后，我们感谢您对学院的支持。我们很高兴看到大家在 Replit 上进行开发，有机会在 Replit 实习，也有机会获得您的资助。Host: In closing, we’re grateful for your support of the academy. We’re excited to have people building on Replit, potentially interning at Replit, and potentially being funded by you.

Amjad 在年轻人才身上看重什么What Amjad Looks for in Young Talent

最后一个问题：当你遇到一个鼓舞人心的18岁、20岁或16岁的年轻人，心想“我得花时间和这个人相处，或者以某种方式参与到他们的生活中”时，他们做了什么让你如此感兴趣？你在年轻人才身上寻找什么？As a last question: when you meet an inspiring 18-, 20-, or 16-year-old and think, “I have to spend time with this person or be involved with them in some way,” what are they doing that captures your interest? What are you looking for in young talent?

Amjad：首先，他们在某个领域钻研得非常深入。他们能教我一些东西。Amjad: The first thing is that they’ve gone really deep into something. They can teach me something.

我觉得任何事情都能引起我的兴趣。如果你能给我讲讲你做过的某个项目，而且对它深入钻研过，那总会让我印象深刻。大多数人都缺乏这种专注力。他们很容易感到厌倦，然后选择走传统的路。你真的沿着一条线索一路追究到底了吗？这很了不起，也体现了各种优秀的性格特质：坚持不懈和内在动力。也许你是在追随自己的好奇心，尽管眼下没有立竿见影的回报。I think I can be interested in anything. If you can tell me a story about a project you’ve done and you’ve gone really deep into it, that’s always impressive. Most people lack that kind of focus. They get bored easily and do the traditional thing. Did you actually follow a thread all the way through? That’s impressive, and it shows all sorts of good personality traits: persistence and intrinsic motivation. Maybe you’re following your curiosity even though there’s no immediate reward.

拥有鲜明的观点并敢于持不同意见也很重要。但如果你聪明又年轻，很容易觉得其他人都是白痴——包括我在内。我遇到过一些年轻人，他们跟我说话时，仿佛我什么都不懂。It’s also important to have strong opinions and be contrarian. But if you’re smart and young, it’s easy to think everyone else is an idiot—including me. I meet young people who talk to me as if I don’t understand anything.

尊重他人并具备良好的人际交往能力很重要，否则别人就不愿意和你相处。It’s important to show respect and have good interpersonal skills. Otherwise, people won’t want to be around you.

主持人：没错。关键在于，不要害怕深入钻研一件事。很多人涉猎面太广，却没有哪方面真正出色。把一件事坚持到底，看看自己能做到多好。同时，也要具备基本的人际交往能力，成为大家愿意相处的人。Host: Totally. It’s about not being afraid to go deep into something. A lot of people show up too broadly and aren’t really amazing at anything. Follow something to its conclusion and see how good you can get at it. At the same time, have a baseline of interpersonal skills and be someone people want to be around.

Amjad：要讨人喜欢，但不要刻意或装出来。要真诚。人们愿意支持人品好的人。而且，当你能对一些冷门又有趣的东西如数家珍、兴致勃勃地聊起来时，也很讨人喜欢。Amjad: Be likable, but not in a contrived or fake way. Be authentic. People want to support people who are good people. And it’s endearing when you can nerd out about something obscure and interesting.

主持人：做得太棒了。谢谢你来参加。Host: Awesome job. Thanks for coming.

Amjad：非常感谢。谢谢你们邀请我。Amjad: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.